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| Wow Big 3, you assumed a few things. I was a UAW member for 28 years and I have a little idea what was going on then. I am not as informed as I was because I have been distanced because of job loss. As far as 95% wage retention for laid off workers for what ever reason, slow downs/retooling. It is true to be no load to the tax payer in the form of taxes, but bottom line is it did affect my wallet on the price of my car purchase. Don't get me wrong I do not want to see any business fail. |
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| Big Three, Kudos for sticking up for your union, Red Neck valid point on the DNR kid drowning point, both you guys need to chill, We ultimately have no voice, if we did, gas wouldn't have been $4/gal for so long, foreclosers, etc. I think the point Big Three was Trying to make was to support your local economy, lets lay down our political views, focus on the one thing thats not f-ed up (outdoors, lakes, etc)the election is over we can only wait to see what happens with obama give him the benefit of trying, long live the union, long live the small guy, long live the small business and non union employees, long the usa and walleye fishing ! PS My toyota was assembled in usa with most of the machined parts made in the usa oh by the way I saw alot of chevy's in europe |
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| Sorry Big 3, it is a bail out. When any company cannot find the funds to operate its everyday needs by normal market routes and has to beg the taxpayers to keep them afloat, it's a bail out. The banks have a freeze on credit to anyone or any company that they see as not solvent. They are not just handing out money to anyone anymore. There are many companies able to get loans through normal means, but they are solvent with a very good outlook of returns, the auto industry is not one of them. I'm not saying that it is all the auto industries fault because the government itself has a role to play. Yes the American Axle workers had their wages cut in half...what about the UAW? You cannot tell me that the workers could not live with $20 and hour instead of $30 an hour if it meant saving their industry.
This is almost identical to the paper industry. The paper industry has been in the decline for many years. More mills have closed than one can count and many, many good paying jobs have been lost (there is a good chance the numbers could rival the auto industry) but the one thing you did not see is Big Paper crawl to congress for money. The market dictated the course of action they took. And yes, the unions had a big hand in the closings. Some unions absolutely refused to make the concessions needed to keep their plants open, now they complain they are out of a job.
I am absolutely worried about the unemployment bill and every other bill and proposal like it. This country was not built on socialism where companies get propped up by the taxpayers.
There are other companies that build military vehicles (like Oshkosh Truck) and if it comes down to it those companies will pick up the slack. I work for a small company that just received a military contract for the heavy armor glass. There are other alternatives besides the Big 3 and they do just a good quality job. I understand you are in the industry and it affects you directly but we are a free market society, so I thought. Auto workers had it very, very good for a long time...now they won't, the same with everyone else. Learn to roll with
it is the only thing I can say. |
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| One last correction Red. What about the UAW you asked?? They've already taken wage and benefit concessions. If you haven't read in the news, new UAW hires make $14/hr. Big 2 Japanese? $19/hr. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Say, Redneck, I will give you a answer here. You have lived in valhalla all of your life. The area you live, is the area I moved to, from the area that is driven by the auto industry. There is one thing I will guarantee will happen should we NOT DO SOMETHING TO INSURE the big 3 stay afloat, YOU KNOW WHAT THAT IS?
Your way of life will change drastically in your lily valley. You ask why? Here is why. Ever see a ship sink? Rats jump for there lives. Michigan will exit workers so fast your head will spin, and they will be right where you are at looking for work in the factories that are allready full of workers. I will guarantee that as it has been happening for 4 decades. Just like ripley said "Believe it or not". I have had many friends and relatives allready calling, looking. And ya know what? Not a one works at GM. They all work non-union that supplies carpet, dashes, blinker fluid and muffler bearing to GM. Them workers, my friend, are the ones that suffer.
You crack me up when you say that some times things have to change. Are you ready for change? You say you do not want your taxes going to this bail out, right. How about they go to feeding the starving as there will be millions of them? What would happen if your valley had 50,000 people come into it in 6 months. It very well could happen. How much more taxes would you pay for fire, police and garbage pick up? What kind of disease and crime would come with it. Believe me when I say, you will pay one way or the other. I would rather get a chance at getting our money back than to just hand it out.
Oh yea, one more thing, what do you think would happen in your valley if paper asked for help because every one was on the internet and they let it collapse? I do!!
Edited by stacker 11/29/2008 10:24 AM
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| I was not talking about new hires Big 3. That is not a wage concession that is a starting wage. A wage concession would be someone with 30 years under the belt making $40/hr taking a resonable pay cut to keep his company viable. If the Japanese auto makers can start out hire at $19 and remain solvent then the Big 3 are doing something wrong. Side question, if the Big 3 needs my money so bad or they will be going belly up why do they have new hires? |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Hey redneck, I know lots of mill rats in your valley. NOT ONE OF THEM GUYS would take a pay cut, NOT ONE AND you know it!! stop with the holier than thou attitude. Ask eye lunker if he would take a pay cut?
Also, non and I mean Non of your points make any sense whats so ever to the over all picture. 19 bucks and hour. Man, that is just boarder line living for a family of 4.
Edited by stacker 11/29/2008 10:38 AM
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| Stacker, the influx of people looking for work coming from non-productive areas to productive ones has been happening since the beginning of the country. The lil valley I live in HAS been hit hard. My wife has worked for three paper mills in the last 10 years and every one has closed. Our way of life has changed drastically! I have lost my hunting land, cottage, retirement land, RV and my retirement savings all because of the economy but the one thing you will never hear me do is piss and moan expecting others to lift me up and, hand me a job or money. I really am glad you know my history, Stacker, to assume I live in la-la land. My family survived the Carter years (which were much worse than today) and we will easily find ways to survive this.
The mill rats not taking a pay cut is exactly my point! If the industry cannot justify the pay and they don't value their jobs enough to take a cut then so be it. The $19 an hour is starting wage for God's sake. Last year I provided for my family on average $21/hr...aint much more. Guess what, we still have our house, and insurance and we ate pretty nice.
Edited by RedNeckTech 11/29/2008 10:49 AM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Red, thats valhalla, not la-la. Valhalla is a word for a place of peace and contentment. And yes, Your valley is still a place of that, peace and contentment. It is a wonderful place that gets very very little injection from the outside areas. Honestly, if the hardest part of your existence is losing hunting land, retirement land and your RV, there are many that will swap places with you. As I said earlier, hold on tight, when these plants close in Michigan, there will be trained factory workers that will take your job for 15 an hour. Then lets see you take a cut in your wage and still provide for your family, as you say.
Dude, swallow hard and admit it, it will be easier to help than to suffer the rath. |
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| Stacker, The hardest part of my existence really does not exist. It does not matter to me how much I loose because I have the wear-for-all to weather it, learn from it and improve. I have two children at home and pay child support on a third, my wife is un-employed. We went from $140,000 a year combined in 2004 to $42,000 year right now. I lost my business along with much more but I never complained, I came up with a plan, worked at it and I am slated to more than double our income next year. I realize I am not entitled to anything, not even a job much less be guaranteed a certain standard of living. If one cannot adapt to the changes in the economy then that is their problem, not mine. I work hard for what I make and I resent the fact that my taxes goes towards people that after losing a $30/hr job refuse to take one at $15/hr or less until the economy improves. They would much rather sit on un-employment and complain than get rid of some of their stuff, adjust to the economy, take a much lower paying job and weather it out. The biggest problem in all of this is the work force plain out does not want to adjust their standard of living when the economy cannot maintain it. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | OK, I will leave you alone with your thoughts. I can see that it is your way or no way. I have expressed mine as well as I can. I will not tell you my story, but just like, well you know what that is, everyone has one. Not all of them workers are the bad people, just remember that.
Have a great holidays.
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| Never said anyone was a bad person, people’s perspectives on life are different though.
Happy Holidays!
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | I will say this and this alone! I as a union worker, have worked too long and hard to give up on my wages as they were bargained for. When the CEO's with their multi-million dollar Golden Parachutes take a huge paycut, only then would I consider reducing my wages. (Not gonna happen!) I believe we need to help others in order to help ourselves and do not mind if my tax dollars help others so that my children have it easier when they need it. Of course, if a person loses his job, he still has to feed his family and carry on. I know we will get through this. It may take a while but in the mean time, I will not throw stones.
Edited by Horshak 11/29/2008 1:10 PM
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| Most of the golden parachutes where created after the government disallowed a good portion of executives salaries as a business expense. The parachutes include a large portion of stock holdings which have plummeted greatly in value. Their income is partly based on stocks and when the stocks plummet so does their income. There is a reason executives make the amount they do, they are very hard to replace, and factory workers are not.
I believe in helping the fellow man when they are down but not by propping up their job. After all, when a union goes on strike and someone who needs a job to support his or her family crosses the picket line, you don't hear a union guy say "That's ok, he needs to feed his family and is in desperate need of the job." The reason is the non-union workers could replace the union worker and that just would not be right, right? So tell me why I should be more concerned about the union guy being able to keep his job when they do not show the compassion for others that need the money? You do not see union workers propping up non-union jobs, in fact they protest any non-union workers just like they did when Woodman's was built. So why should the union jobs be propped up?
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | RNT -
"This is almost identical to the paper industry. The paper industry has been in the decline for many years. More mills have closed than one can count and many, many good paying jobs have been lost (there is a good chance the numbers could rival the auto industry) but the one thing you did not see is Big Paper crawl to congress for money."
The auto industry today has almost nothing in common with the fall of many paper companies in the valley. The paper industry was and is still a viable sector of the US economy. Yes, they had to close a few mills that could not/were not producing product as efficiently as other mills could. World wide capacity was an issue, as was the cost associated with maintaining older mills. But the fact remains is was little more than supply and demand that killed most of the paper industry. Unfortunately for us, many of those closings were here in Wisconsin. The entire US auto industry is struggling now because of out of control heath care cost, the credit crunch, and because most US cars and trucks are not as efficient as their foreign couterparts. |
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| Brad, you are partly right but it was not simply supply and demand that killed the paper mills, case in point is Riverside. That plant was closed because the workers and union were simply not efficient to make a profit (the plant did not make a profit for over 4 years). The family that owned the mill tried to sell it but no other company wanted to buy an inefficient mill so they closed it and sold the machines to try to recoup some sort of money. They kept the converting plants and transferred all the jobs to Iowa where there were no unions and where they were showing profits.
Fox River owned six plants, five in the country and Bob and the board closed three because of the operating costs...aka the unions. Adding all the union paper makers and converting jobs lost in the last ten years it is staggering but not surprising.
As for the auto, the healthcare and benefits/retirements is the biggest factor in the killing of the industry. When GM has 70% of its corporate as benefits it is a tell tale sign.
I do not belong to a union (which is not a surprise) but I also would not work in a place that requires union membership, I like my pay based on merit. I am also not against unions, I just feel that if you live by the union you should also die by the union.
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Location: Orland Park, IL | We got some of the same issues in the technology field. The company I work for wants close to 50% of their workforce "offshore". India and kenya are two big suppliers. No union here, merely an announcement you job is going overseas and you got 60 days to find a new one else your out. At the least the union guys have some negotiating leverage. |
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| I've been living the mill closings,layoffs and pay reduction. I have worked in the Fox Valley all my life and have really not had to deal with some of these issues because the paper industry was strong here and Kimberly Clark was a big employer. Now we have closed several mills,layed off thousands, and my mill was very close to being another. Fortunatly we were spared but for how long nobody knows. I find it very hard when the CEO sends messages on how we need to tighten up our belts and do all we can these days to cut costs. Then find out they made millions of dollars a year when many people have been layed off or took pay cuts. Someone made a comment about CEO'S being hard to replace and factory workers are not. Well why was it years ago CEO'S saleries were about 3 times the average worker made and mills were able to expand and grow? Now they are 10 to 20 million a year and everyones cutting jobs and needing bailouts? |
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Location: Appleton wi | There are alot of missing pieces that are not being said here but also alot of very good points and pieces of the puzzle. For one i am for the loans to help the big 3 in this troubled time. I would like to see the auto workers union to be dissolved because its time for them to go. Unions are not needed in this day and age. For one example that bothers me is the new plants that have been build in foriegn country's by the big three. They were build there for a reason and the reason is that the union would not allow high new technology( robotic )plants build in the usa and have there union member s work in them because some of the robotic jobs would take some jobs away. This is a tough time and if a manufacturing comapny does not have the ability to change without outside interference(union) its just one more huge deterent for progress. Everyone been hit hard last few years i no longer get free health insurance i have been paying more and more every year and i work in a hospital. The bottom line survial is tough and the unions make it harder for companys to evolve! JMHO |
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| Eye Lunker, Red Neck, first off.. I will say this, without taking offense, neither one of you have OBVIOUSLY never been in a union. If it weren't for unions HERE in the USA... my friends, we'd all be going to the same dirty needle clinic, waiting for bread, modern day Russia etc. You guys want unions to go away so bad because you NON UNION GUYS can do the same job for $5.00/hr less right...That DINOSAUR BRAIN Mentality is why the companies/JOBS in the US have Already gone overseas, just remember at the least the union fights for its guys, and when your non-union shop closes its doors (non union jobs are the first to go overseas)you ain't getting nothing my friend when you punch that clock for the last time. Oh by the way when your standing in line asking... no... (BEGGING) your boss for a raise ..just remember how much it pissed YOU TWO OFF that union guys make what they make, oh and when your old and sick ...just remember when your health care runs out BECAUSE you decided against the union, Turn and look over at the union guy in the hospital next to you and remember the union stood for its people and the USA, go ahead complain more and be careful for what you wish for because your non-union jobs will be the first to go....other than that I hpoe everyone has a nice day and happy holidays, our children are what we need to plan for, they are the ones who are really going to take a bite out of the crap sandwich 15 years from now. Look real close at Canadian health care and the Russia economy, they never had unions to prevent that BS |
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Location: Appleton wi | Ok ffmed i repect your opinion and yes you do have a few valid point but your the one with the dinasour mentality and let me add you have no balls! Why dont you log in and identify yourself instead of hiding behind your screen at home. if anyone should be offended i should be with your post and assuming things about me? |
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| ffmed, eye lunker is right...unions are hampering the companies today and not helping. Unions had their place in time and they did good for the era but today you have union workers making the good wages, getting the good benefits and all the union does is ask for even more even when it is obvious to the whole country the industry is in no shape to keep giving to every want of the union worker, and all they are today are wants and not needs. If the union workers were so concerned about the jobs lost why don't they band together and pool $5,000 of their own money and buy one of the closing mills instead of complaining how it's not fair they lost their jobs? Management jobs are no easy task and they are the first people who make the company work so unions can have a job to make the product. Most executives do not make millions of dollars. The old executive of Fox River made around $225,000 and he had lots of stock...he deserved the stock since he actually owned the company and it was started by his family. Unions are pure...that is why when people from Riverside were being laid off some took it upon them selves to vandalize some of the corporate office vehicles. Thank you, I needed to put new tires on my wife’s van.
As far as wages, healthcare and such I do fine. Accrediting unions for every company providing good benefits for their workers is a little far reaching. As far as I see it unions would hamper my ability to advance in a company. I am aggressive and just waiting in line so enough time goes by so I can advance is not for me, let me advance on my own merit.
Buy the way, it has been the union jobs more than the non-union that have been moved overseas and to areas without unions and if the union workers are blind enough not to see the reason why union jobs are disappearing at an alarming rate then they deserve to lose the jobs. You cannot tell me the union's demands are not over the top when the AWU demanded the company pays for a job bank (this is where when there is a layoff the workers come in, sit around and play cards and games while getting 95% of their pay). The AWU is thinking about getting rid of that so that congress will give the company the money, not because it is ridiculous to have that.
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Location: Appleton wi | For those who never read this!http://www.fas.usda.gov/itp/Policy/NAFTA/nafta.asp
Edited by eye Lunker 11/30/2008 10:47 AM
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| Good Luck guys, we all gave our opinions...Big Three , Me ,Eye Lunker, and Red Neck Tech, we all have written our comments, argued points, and basically got no where, so let's shift the energy towards a different topic, sounds like your offended eye lunker, don't be afraid to seperate church from state...can't be offended when you talk politics you need thick skin, hopefully none of us lose our jobs no one deserves it. |
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Location: Appleton wi | Hey ffmed your so strong on your convictions and throw cheap shot s at poeple but your ashamed of your self and like to hide behind your computor? ugh...... your coward and a small man!
Edited by eye Lunker 11/30/2008 11:22 AM
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