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| Would banning live bait hurt the tournaments or leave them un-changed? |
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Location: Rhinelander | I think over the long haul Artificial only Walleye tournaments would be quite popular. I know the Can/Am on the Goon was well received. |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | I agree with CT. I see no new ideas here. We exhausted the dialogue earlier and even beat each other up. I’m too thin skinned and hurt easily so I will not try to explain the value of artificial only tournaments again.  I believe that this is one of those concepts that most people reject the first time they hear it but the idea will grow on most people over time.
Funny, some of the same people who scream that walleye tournaments need to change to survive (even go as far as to say we should be more like BASS) are the same people rejecting the concept of artificial only.
We may all have to leave our comfort zones from time to time for walleye tournaments to evolve as they should.
Here are the previous links to this discussion. Maybe we should just number your objections from before to save you time. That way you can just respond with a number. Jerry can say: " NO your wrong Sunshine, #28". Stacker can chime in and scream: "#99, #99 ........... Sunshine you are an idiot" It'll save us all some time in the long run.
http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11970&start=1&posts=24&highlight=artificial+only&highlightmode=1
http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11957&start=1&highlight=artificial+only&highlightmode=1
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| "Any talk or thought of banning trolling in walleye tournaments is just stupid talk. The backbone of tournament walleye fishing IS trolling."
I disagree, I also think that is as narrow of view as being opposed to an artificial only tournament. While it is the featured technique of the majority of the field. It is not the only way to fish, from a television/appeal to the fan base point of view, it is very boring to watch.
Perhaps we should have an artifical only get together with a bunch of WF'ers just to see how it goes? |
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| CT - 1/20/2009 4:38 PM
OK Shep; This topic was posted by Jim O last August. It was 3 pages worth and is a really good read. I suggest everyone look it up!
Took your advice, and revisited that thread back in August. Good points made on both sides. Please notice I didn't get my say in that thread. I must have been busy fishing on Green Bay. And probably using real crawlers.
To respond to the statement that there is nothing new here? Well, actually there is. Aside from my insightful additions, there is Al Lindners address to the NPAA that is new. And that adds a certain amount of credibility to this discussion, right now.
I am not one that is pushing for or against a live bait ban in walleye tourneys. And I seriously doubt ANY state DNR would mandate such a ban. So the only question left is would any of the large circuits, AIM, FLW, or MWC ever begin limiting the use of live bait. IMO, I think, yes, eventually, one of them, more likely AIM and/or FLW will. As I have said many times, the Pro Tourneys are all about money. Nothing else. There is virually no money coming from live bait dealers into these tourneys, but there is from the artificials, with the potential for much more. And that is the reason I see eventually one or more circuits going to artificials only. Keep you eye on the ball. It's all about the money.
And here's a pic for Capt Dan!
I don't see smaller tourneys going all artificial. Bar tourneys, and smaller circuits like MWS, WAT, IWT, or perhaps even the FLW League, I think, would remain open. Just not enough money involved there by Artificial bait makers to justify it.
I think the arguement that the viewing public cares one way or the other is way overstated. I don't think it would effect the numbers of fans in the least.
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | "...I disagree, I also think that is as narrow of view as being opposed to an artificial only tournament. While it is the featured technique of the majority of the field. It is not the only way to fish, from a television/appeal to the fan base point of view, it is very boring to watch..."
LOL......WHATEVER JAYMAN!!!!! If you think a group of clowns drifting over a school of fish with jigs or live bait is exciting versus watching someone catch big fish pulling spinners or cranks out on the Great Lakes, then so be it!!! What a waste of time this is.....I'm out!!! |
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| You're exactly right, Jerry. Walleyes are boring to catch. Brad makes a good point, if they weren't tasty they'd be right up there with carp. Errrr wait, carp put up a better fight than walleyes.
So in a nutshell, we have people that wouldn't fish a tournement if they could not use live bait, lack of confidence. And we have people who would not fish a tournament if they can not troll, again lack of confidence. And we have another group that says something needs to be done differently to grow the sport, grow the fan base, and make it better all they way around.
I don't see any of it happening anytime soon. |
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| My experience has been walleye are just as hard to catch with live bait as artificial. Spend any time during the run where there are guys on the bridge fishing with live and a lot of the boats are artificial....the catches seem to be the same, live catch some and artificial catch some.
The walleye tournaments will never be like the bass so take that out of the equation and what you have left is the perception to the public. The public does not care what type of bait is used, they voice up when seeing dead fish floating after a tournament not that Joe used live bait and that's not fair to the fish being tricked like that.
Going artificial for some tournaments would defiantly put a layer of competitiveness to the sport, take out the use of fish finders and then you have total competition.
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| Shep, I agree with 90% of your comments, (ok, get back up I know you fell over).
Your right, Lindners comments add to this, and maybe not intended to be but I think were not helpful and inflamatory. One could guess he's helping promote AIM and at the same time certainly he is commercialized, maybe not intentional but he is biased, bought and paid for by the industry bigs.
Maybe AIM will prove me wrong but I think the "joe the plumber" public want to see the fish on stage, and tourneys will really have to specifically target certain waters at certain times to get those big exciting catches. Who is going to fish a mid May GreenBay tourney with no trolling and no artificial. Yeah yeah I know some fish could still be caught but not near as many. |
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Location: Berlin | jerry - 1/21/2009 12:06 PM
"...I disagree, I also think that is as narrow of view as being opposed to an artificial only tournament. While it is the featured technique of the majority of the field. It is not the only way to fish, from a television/appeal to the fan base point of view, it is very boring to watch..."
LOL......WHATEVER JAYMAN!!!!! If you think a group of clowns drifting over a school of fish with jigs or live bait is exciting versus watching someone catch big fish pulling spinners or cranks out on the Great Lakes, then so be it!!! What a waste of time this is.....I'm out!!!
Hey, tell us how you really feel I would sure find drift fishing boring to watch but I would rather go bass fishing then watch some fat guy eating a bag of potato chips while he is "hardcore" trolling for walleyes.. Different strokes for different folks I guess. |
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| You gotta problem with potato chips? or fat guys? |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | ".....Hey, tell us how you really feel I would sure find drift fishing boring to watch but I would rather go bass fishing then watch some fat guy eating a bag of potato chips while he is "hardcore" trolling for walleyes.. Different strokes for different folks I guess...."
Obviously you aren't talking about me, as I am a pretzel man, not a chips fan........LOL!!!! |
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Location: Berlin | lol, too funny Jerry |
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| i still dont understand why there is an argument? walleyes are tricky to pattern and catch... i have spend many years as most of us on this sight have trying to catch these buggers on a consistant basis... what i have found out is this... ITs HARD! tournaments have been won by pulling crawlers behind boards and guys pulling cranks got a beating... the next week the guys pulling harnesses got killed because the fish wanted a fast mover with a rattle not a thump... the next week it rains all pre fishing the water gets dirty and the clear water trolling bite is gone.. the rocks are productive with some wind and a slip bobber or a crawler on a jig... Trollers pick off a few shallow but have a hard time .. but the jig fisherman bring in the meat! live bait , crank baits in the stumps and rocks, and gulp all cost money! None are cheep! let the boys figure out what they want to do and let them alone! bass fishing was never a live bait thing anyway ! forget about them! Walleye fishing for the average joe is hard enough and they will show up for the spawn run and the good bite weeks and go off and do other things the rest of the year... take a look at the spring tournaments on Baggo in april... lower turn outs because of inconsistant catches live artificial whatever it doesnt matter... small males 14 inches long dont help you... and finding and tricking the larger fish is tuff... guys just want to bring in a catch and compete.. why tie there hands... same in July or the dog days... spend a week pre-fishing on the bay in August knowing if you run a nice fat crawler and find some active fish the day of the tornament after covering 50 miles and 5 spots only to find out that the fish moved and then finding them with two hours to fish is hard enough.. now you hope they will hit a crank or a fake worm on a harness or a gulp or squid? when you know a crawler if leagal can give you a shot to pick off the 4 or 5 fish you need to place . i dont know where most of you do you tournament fishing or if its just in the prime time months of june on Baggo but anyone who fishes a tuff bite the rest of the year needs all the help they can get! the fact is that even in the 300+ boat events in june there are plenty that have a hard time and nobody wants to come in empty ... not cashing a check is one thing but fishing all day not being able to use a live crawler or leach will upset half the field if they cant do it.. or a river tournament in the spring... it will hurt the turn out and hurt walleye fishing in my opinion. thats all... We need to admit to ourselves that this fish is hard to catch and most that enter these small tavern events or annual otter street type club events or even the weekend fisherman tfm type events have day jobs.. handycap them and there high hopes and they wont show up! Remember the thaught of good chances is what get guys to enter the past successful days with what ever bait gives them confidence ... never mind that when its a tournament day the starting gun goes off and its up for grabbs weather wise and whatever the fish are thinking they want... leave it alone already.. or start a live bait free tournament cercuit... those that want to play by those rules will fish and those that dont wont... but why make them make that choice in a modern day when the affordabuility of the game is cutting the noumbers of entries already... Having fifty kinds of gulp or whatever in your box costs money too.. did you ever look how much the stuff costs? its like trying to kickstart our shabby economy with our government putting us further in debt ? its a little tuff to build participation and growth when you keep putting something further out of reach for the common fisherman. LOOKS LIKE HALF LIKE THE IDIA AND HALF DONT! MY QUESTION IS... WHY DO WE LET OUR LARGE STRONG GROUP OF FOLKS WHO LOVE WALLEYE FISHING AND EVERYTHING ABOUT IT GET SEPARATED AND SPLIT OVER SOMTHING SO SMALL? THIS IS CRAZY ! FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO FIGHT FOR ... FOR CRYING OUT LOUD WITH ALL THE CRAP THAT IS MESSED UP IN OUR WORLD ? BANNING LIVE BAIT IN A TOURNAMENT IS WHAT YOUR TAKING UP AS YOUR LITTLE PART TO CHANGE THE WORLD?... my goodness did you look at the senate ... did you notice the kind of wacky goofballs are running this country .. your schools your justice system? look at the currupt nut jobs we are letting stay in office ! oh ya live bait ban for walleye tournaments? WHAAAAAAAT? how about this one? if the boat launch is under too much trafic because there are too many folks using them because of walleye tournaments and boat races and riverfront festivals why dont our boat registration money and launch fee's cover the cost to make a new one and a bigger one so the people going to work everyday and paying the bills in this country can enjoy the day off! |
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| lol...wow thats a lot of typing.
I don't think this is a fight, never meant any of my posts to look that way. It's a discussion. And talking never hurt a sport or tournaments or fishing styles. I haven't seen anybody trying to destroy our fishing or tournament fishing.
Opinions are like "you know", everybody has one, and all but mine stink. :D
Edited by saugers2 1/21/2009 4:52 PM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | For everyone, including CT, Jerry, Sunshine and whomever that said this was beat to death last summer, you are right. But revisiting a subject every 6 months or so is not stupidity, it is the correct thing to do. Keeps the subject in the fore front. We are on top of the game.
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| Never said I agreed with Lindners comments, either. At least not all of them. Just trying to get the point across that just because something was already discussed some time ago, doesn't mean that it can't be discussed again. Some new participants may not have seen the previous, new factors come along, and opinions change, or become more deeply entrenched.
I still say that one of the major circuits will go all artificial. Me bet is on AIM to do it first, to differentiate even further from the FLW.
Stacker, you looking over my shoulder? I never figured you being as smart as me! hehehe
Edited by Shep 1/22/2009 9:48 AM
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| Bradley.....Dude, ease off. Maybe less coffee? |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | stacker - 1/22/2009 9:44 AM For everyone, including CT, Jerry, Sunshine and whomever that said this was beat to death last summer, you are right. But revisiting a subject every 6 months or so is not stupidity, it is the correct thing to do. Keeps the subject in the fore front. We are on top of the game. Stacker I agree! I jumped the gun and needed to reflect on my comments. Dialogue is always good as long as we can agree to disagree without attacking one another for our beliefs. I may be the lone ranger on this issue now but believe that the idea has merit if we seek the help of financial support from companies that produce artificial baits. Some national circuits require certain boats be used for championships. I can see the day when certain tournaments require the use of artificials I do not see this as bad thing. I believe the TV viewer will continue to use live bait but will also see that it is possible to use artificials to catch and fish and win a tournament. They'll look at what was used to win a tournament like this and will be inclined to buy that product. That is a win-win for the sponsor and the tournament fisherman who is sponsored by them. |
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| I am worn out from reading this, almost as much as Bradley's period key is. |
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Location: Berlin | Just a thought but wasn't the Redfish tournaments artificial only? I could be wrong but I thought the FLW dropped that circuit? |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Rich S - 1/22/2009 10:37 AM Just a thought but wasn't the Redfish tournaments artificial only? I could be wrong but I thought the FLW dropped that circuit? Yes, Rich they were artificial only tournaments.
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| Shep, I meant Lindners were inflammatory not yours, my apologies for the misunderstanding. |
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| I knew you meant mine were not inflammatory. Mine never are! |
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Location: Rhinelander | CT,
Regarding your above post:
That's singularly the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. You show by the abruptness of your comments your lack of understanding as to what Mr. Lindner was saying and why. Al's an independently wealthy man, and expresses his opinion based on his experience, which is, I would guess, tremendously wider, deeper and more comprehensive than yours. He's not a scintilla afraid to buck the Industry, and at times has been famous for just that. Al Lindner isn't 'bought and paid for' by anyone, and has frequently re-set the bar the rest of the Industry folks needed to strive to reach for. If you were there you could comment on the entire speech, but I'd guess from what you posted above, you were not. I now wish I had taped that speech, it was REALLY 'out of the box'.
Inflammatory? How so, because he defines what from his considerable experience might be a positive step in professionalizing the Sport, and describes exactly WHY he feels that way?
Mr. Lindner is in no way associated with, promotiong for, or working with AIM and has no intent to other than to comment on the direction he feels the sport needs to go, and encourage AIM to innovate even further than they have. |
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