|
|
Member
Posts: 1314
Location: Menasha, WI | I'll refrain from the name-calling, Shep. Nastiness aside, you've failed to explain why those extremely vague things you list would keep Mercury here now nor do you explain how those states that give corporations the shirts off their backs are losing manufacturing jobs as well (and at the same time failing to provide their citizens w/ proper education and other essential govt services). Since you made the point and seem to be sticking to it, I'll ask again. What specifically can Doyle, or any other politican do to keep Merc here? Hint (nothing)
|
|
| |
|
| The union members at Merc belong to the wrong union, if they belonged to the teachers union Doyle would take care of them! Doyle's not running for re-election so what does he care. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Funny Scottp:
The governor kept Tommy Thompson's QEO in place for 6 years (promised to get rid of it). Teachers received settlements at a maximum of 3.8% (salary and benefit increases). The last few contracts health insurance ate up most if not all of it. As a teacher of 30+ years I can remember friends in industry getting double and triple my increases. And all of this was mandated. People have short memories, when Tommy Thompson made this mandatory; teachers were receiving 3.8% total packages while others were benefiting from a great economy and many were getting double digits. Don't believe me, look it up. Now and only now, when the economy sucks and many are getting zero increases is the BS repealed. I will guarantee you that when the economy recovers (and it will) and business is back to usual, some great representative will reintroduce the idea again (and it will pass again) Doyle is NOT doing the teachers any favors by getting rid of the QEO now. Sorry for the vent and getting off topic......... but he started it........... I'm telling 
Edited by Sunshine 8/19/2009 4:58 PM
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 617
Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | "Kimberly, Riverside and now Merc., it is amazing how they just ignore the writing on the wall and then attempt to get sympathy when they force a mill closing."
Unions had little or nothing to do with the closings/reduction at most paper mills in the fox river valley. Yes, many of the paper mills were union, and yes, many of them are no longer in business. But these two facts are NOT related. Heating costs, location relative to raw materials, location relative to market, and the age of the machinery involved doomed most of the plants so often held high in an effort to shame union labor. Another thing to keep in mind is the difference in heating costs a plant in Wisconsin incurs as compared to a similar plant in the southern states. The facility I work at spends tens of thousands of dollars on heat each winter - costs that our competitors in Texas and other southern states never incur. For a medium sized company like ours, our winter heating costs are as much as 10 to 15% of our annual profit.
How does this have anything to do with the union at Merc? No clue if it has anything to do with it, just the same as most of the people adding their opinions on the emotionally charged topic.
Can one of you FACTUALLY show me the difference in business taxes in Wisconsin as compared to where ever Merc is talking about moving to? Or share how much money that state is offering as an incentive to lure Merc out of Wisconsin?
I too have an opinion on this, but prefer to temper that with a few facts from time to time. I find that my opinions tend to carry a bit more weight when based in fact... |
|
| |
|
| Sorry for striking a nerve sunshine, you are obviously a teacher, and as far as getting 3.8% a year that's not to bad, actually better than what I've been getting the last fifteen years of being a card carrying, dues paying member of the International Union of Operating Engineers, we are happy if we get 3% a year, and there have been contracts with less than 3%. So you are preaching to the wrong guy. |
|
| |
|
| Brad B
The paper mills mentioned were due to the union. My wife was the President's assistant at Riverside and was the one who prepared all paperwork for the attorneys, board meetings and negotiations along with dictates. My cousin was 2nd in command for HR at Kimberly.
-"age of the machinery involved" Riverside had updated equipment
-"Heating costs" I hope you are not serious about that statement, the mills are heated by the steam pipes which also powered the machines, paper mills are hot no matter where they are. Even the offices for riverside were heated with steam from the mill.
Again, Merc is not hiding the fact that they need concessions or they will have to re-locate to survive. The union refuses and the plant closes as predicted...so the union is not at fault?
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 885
| Read the followong headlines... What's wrong with this picture?? Madison — The Legislature's budget committee signed off Tuesday on a plan to spend $47.1 million for two train sets without a competitive bid. and this gem... "Transportation Secretary Frank Busalacchi insisted taxpayers got a good deal." and another quote... "What we've done is we tried to protect the taxpayers here, and I think we've done that," Busalacchi told the committee. Our Gov is out of touch with the people and how we make our living in WI... Dominic
Edited by Purple Skeeter 8/20/2009 8:39 AM
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 3899
| http://www.jzorn.com/Merc%20Pg%201-2.pdf
Here is the impact of Mercury moving from WI.
Viking, just calling it as I see it. I gave specifics. I'll get a little more specific. Cut the size of the UW system. Why do we need all the redundancy in this state. We have UW Campuses all over the place. Why? They aren't nearly full. I say cut all but the top 4. They certainly aren't self sufficient. Just think how much tax money could be saved. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 340
Location: McFarland, WI | Wisconsin is ranked anywhere from 39th to 47th by various business organizations. By comparison, Minnesota ranks 10 or 11th. Nationally it is not considered a business friendly state. Regulatory fees, environmental cost, cost associated with siting, litigation, labor, are considered in these surveys and all are influenced by governmental policy. Bottom line is this state is more expensive and its fiscal policy is terrible. I love this state but if I was starting my business it would not be here. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 617
Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | "-"Heating costs" I hope you are not serious about that statement, the mills are heated by the steam pipes which also powered the machines, paper mills are hot no matter where they are. Even the offices for riverside were heated with steam from the mill. "
Do you find me ignorant? Honestly?
Ask you sister's boyfriend's cousin's next door neighbor that worked in the boiler room at one of the two plants you mentioned if the steam consumption at each facility was constant year round or if there is a greater draw in the dead of the winter. Then put a pencil to the cost to produce that extra amount of steam used each winter and tell me its not a significant amount. I didn't think steam was free - maybe I'm wrong on that too... jeesh...
I find it hard to believe you can't accept there is more at play in these situations than a big old mean greedy union.
Do you have any idea how much it costs to produce
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 617
Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Larrys -
I've seen those surveys too. Any chance you've ever seen one that tries to estimate how much more it costs the average company to operate in Wisconsin because of those factors? |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 1314
Location: Menasha, WI | Shep - 8/20/2009 8:54 AM http://www.jzorn.com/Merc%20Pg%201-2.pdf Here is the impact of Mercury moving from WI. Viking, just calling it as I see it. I gave specifics. I'll get a little more specific. Cut the size of the UW system. Why do we need all the redundancy in this state. We have UW Campuses all over the place. Why? They aren't nearly full. I say cut all but the top 4. They certainly aren't self sufficient. Just think how much tax money could be saved. A) You didn't give any specifics on what any politician could do to keep Merc here. The list of "policy" options you provide is simplisitic RW talk radio boilerplate to be kind (see anyone can make broad generalizations). B) They aren't nearly full? Wrong! Even at UWO, we increase our enrollment every year and we're still turning away students. Investment in the UW System pays back $10 in economic activity for every dollar invested. If you'd prefer WI to be like Alabama, your plan would be ideal.
C) The bottom line is that you're whining about the loss of manufacturing in the state of WI even though it's a national phenomenon. It's not the state's supposed anti-business climate and taxes that are the problem. It's like whining about the flu while you're suffering from a gunshot wound.
Edited by Viking 8/20/2009 10:29 AM
|
|
| |
|
| Brad...on this you do not know what you are talking about, working in a mill does not give you clairvoyance into management. My family has been in paper mills for decades. Besides my wife and cousin, my father was a fireman for KC (ran the boilers), my uncle is one of the top millwrights for KC also...travels all over the country, while in retirement, for mill design and set up on a consulting basis. But hey, your wisdom exceeds everyone else’s knowledge, I understand.
The trend in Wisconsin has been to close down mills in this state and transfer the jobs to the south. The unions are the reason for it. In the case of Riverside, they closed that mill because the productive rate of the union was way under the expected output where the production mill part of Riverside did not make a profit for over 6 years...in fact the it was putting the company in the hole. It was not due to demand or competitiveness but the percentage of bad material that was being produced and damaged after production. It was 36% higher than any other mill! That is a people problem. The family had enough and didn't want to loose any more money but they kept the converting plants and guess where they got the paper....the southern sates. It is cheaper to buy the raw rolls from the south and have them trucked up here than to have them produced up here just 2000' away at their own paper mill.
Fox River sold because Bob Buchanan wanted to retire and his kids did not want the business. How do I know? We are family friends with Bobby and Bonnie and again, my wife worked in the head office with Bob. So yes Brad...there are people who know what they are talking about.
Like it or not, the unions are pushing the envelope during a time they do not have the power to be doing so. Companies are leaving in swarms and it is not due to heating costs.
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 538
| I think this problem is much simpler than anyone understands.
Mercury management feels they can only remain competitive buy reducing costs in its manufactoring and the employess feel they have contract that should be honored. Both legimate arguemnts. The problem is that Mercury has all the leverage. I have always been a loyal Merc fan. Should they leave the state, I think I will be just one of legions that shop around for my next motor.
Take care,
Jim O |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 3899
| So you think WI is a business freindly state, Viking? If so, I'll stop now.
I wasn't talking about UW-O. That's one I'd keep. I'm talking UW-Fondy, UW-Superior, UW-Ashland, UW-BF Egypt, etc. Those are certainly not nearly full to capacity.
Ah, the RW Conspiracy accusation. Typical.
Edited by Shep 8/20/2009 11:44 AM
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 1314
Location: Menasha, WI | That's not what I'm saying at all. WI could certainly make improvements but it is certainly not the hell hole you portray it to be. Investing in a diverse, high-tech economy would go a long ways to stabilizing the economy in this state (see MN for example). My point is (for the third or fourth time) Merc's leaving WI has far less to do with WI economic policies than it does with national and global economic trends. If you don't see that then I'll stop.
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 617
Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | RNT -
So you know what your talking about because your related to people, but I have no idea what I'm talking about because I've taken the time to view many different perspectives of the situation and read countless articles on what happened, and developed an opinion on the subject independent of my own personal experiences.
Yeah, it all makes sense now. Unions are the anti-crist reincarnated.
For the record, I don't work in a paper mill. I am part of management. I have a degree is in Chemistry and Mathematics.
TRY to consider this... If the labor force what the ONLY problem with the mills you have mentioned and they truly could have been profitable without a union work force, why didn't someone buy them, fired all the employees, and started over?
Will the union accept the changes proposed by Mercury? I certainly hope they do. However, if Mercury and the union fail to find a common ground, I can't assume the union is the ONLY reason for Mercury leaving. Your position appears to be that everything else is equal between the two locations and the only possible difference is the wage and benefit package between these two locations. How can you possible know that??? |
|
| |
|
| "TRY to consider this... If the labor force what the ONLY problem with the mills you have mentioned and they truly could have been profitable without a union work force, why didn't someone buy them, fired all the employees, and started over?"
Why?? Because the mill itself could not be sold without whoever buying it having to take over the PCB water pollution fines and responsibility that is attached to the building. No company wants to voluntarily take on that expense and responsibility. If you are in management you should know that fact.
Sorry, when I have immediate relation, including a wife, who were heavily involved in the closing of the two mills then yes, I know better than you on the main reasons the mills were closed. Just for the record, I am not anti-union, I just realize the unions are the biggest reason for mills leaving...its reality. The times do not support what the unions are demanding right now.
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 617
Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | You will not convince me with "I know because..."
"I know because" is not a reason. It's emotion. Reasons can be discussed and debated. Emotion can not be. Let's just drop it and both hope something happens to keep Mercury here in the valley.
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 1656
| "Just for the record, I am not anti-union, I just realize the unions are the biggest reason for mills leaving...its reality."
Imagine if the internet never existed.....this debate would be taking place on a note pad........errrrr Paper. Perhaps there is more to why the paper mills are closing than just the union? The world is not black and white, never will it be. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 591
Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | and the fact that the state is spending our tax money and also making the mills dig up river bottom 30 feet below the current river bottom.. mixing up the silt and re-introducing contamination that has been burried below 30 feet of mud. this is crazy and at the time the polution was dumped there was no regulation or problem with it at all. everything went into the river! the city dump flowed into the river for crying out loud! to hold the paper mills responsible for millions and millions has cost the state much more in lost tax revenue over the long haul . loss of jobs and tax revinue down the road. being compeititive with a 3rd world country making ars whipe is hard the way it is but add to that a massive debt emposed by the state for something that was done so so long ago without complaint and holding todays companies responsible because they are the only ones left with so called deep pockets is not productive. in my opinion we may be causing more dammage than good and we are turning around re introducing this silt into the water system again. also trucking it to where? down the road to expose the crap to another water table..... sounds silly to me! |
|
| |
|
| I sure hope every one of you arguing has a Merc hanging off the back of their boat!!! If not, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, not the unions. If people didn't buy inferior Japanese motors made on 50 cents per hour or less labor, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and all Merc motors would still be made in America also. Buy American or continue to watch our manufacturing cities die like the steel cities did. You think Mercs cost cutting will stop by moving to a non-union southern plant? Get real! That move will be countered by the competition. Unless the good ole boys down south are willing to work for minimum wage with no bennefits, OR people stop buying Jap Crap, ALL those jobs WILL go overseas eventually. How will you blame the unions then? Start yelling at the people buying Japanese motors and leave your fellow Americans trying to make a descent wage alone. |
|
| |
|
| non-union - 8/20/2009 5:10 PM
I sure hope every one of you arguing has a Merc hanging off the back of their boat!!! If not, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, not the unions. If people didn't buy inferior Japanese motors made on 50 cents per hour or less labor, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and all Merc motors would still be made in America also. Buy American or continue to watch our manufacturing cities die like the steel cities did. You think Mercs cost cutting will stop by moving to a non-union southern plant? Get real! That move will be countered by the competition. Unless the good ole boys down south are willing to work for minimum wage with no bennefits, OR people stop buying Jap Crap, ALL those jobs WILL go overseas eventually. How will you blame the unions then? Start yelling at the people buying Japanese motors and leave your fellow Americans trying to make a descent wage alone. :)
OK, do you happen to know the percentage of parts for Merc motors that are made out of this country? I think you would be suprised. The average company that has "Made In America" lables has 60% to 80% of the product made over seas. By fedral law you only have to have 10% of the product made OR assembled in the US to have it labled Made In America. Every person not having a Merc is not the cause. |
|
| |
|
| "Every person not having a Merc is not the cause."
How true. It's the union's fault.
Why are jobs going over-seas?
It's the union's fault.
Why did the economy take a slide?
It's the union's fault.
My McBreakfast was served cold this morning. Pretty sure that was the union's fault too. I'm also pretty sure the union caused the flu, head aches, constipation, and ugly babies. Although that last one is a different kind of bad union.. |
|
| |
|
| And at one point, wasn't a Merc made almost completely in the USA? Sure, you can say the current microcosm of the situation isn't because of that. The problem with the big picture is though and rooted back when people started selling out their neighbors and country for cheap Japanese motors and let them get a foothold in the market. As their market share increased, Merc had to start sending work and parts overseas until we find ourselves where we are today. Hard to compete with wages measured in cents per hour. People buying Japanese motors IS the problem! If people don't buy them, there is no issue here to discuss. |
|
| |
