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| Cell phone usage is also rampant in events such as merc and otter which is unfortunate. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | OK Tyee, what you got? You have logged in on the 5th and did not answer. I am so sick of you and some others throwing out a blanket statement and never explaining or backing it up. I want to know. This is not a argument, its a discussion. I want to know why we need to do what you say.
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Location: Green Bay, WI. | That's scary, I have an X-wife that would check when I logged in on another site just to argue. Pat Cavins |
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| ya pretty scary Pat you should steer clear of those other porn sites, this walley porn is all you need to get the wife in a tizzy. I log in often and dont always check a thread! But to "discuss" it with you Stacker.....Public perception is what it is! lots of dead fish at a tournament does not help the sport. believe it or not but the Bass guys figured this out long ago! If you want to argue that tournament fishing has no impact on the fishery...well I wont go there because we both know it doesn't. but when there is a 50% mortality of mostly females at a tournament people get upset! No argument there whatso ever! Improving the image of tournament fishing INCLUDES reducing the number of dead fish!
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 3/6/2010 11:28 AM
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Okay, since we all agree on two points... 1) That reasonable tournament usage of Winnebago has no detrimental effect on the fishery, and 2) it is only about "perception" not reality... Then, let's fix the perception issue.... We can play a game, and use release boats that sprinkle the fish all over the lake far away from the weigh-in site or we can simply kill and clean everything weighed (no floating dead fish) by requiring the anglers to take away (home) their legal limits.
Or, let's all work to educate the "public" and support the sport of tournament fishing and recognize the contribution of tournament anglers to the health of the resource and the sport of fishing in general. An anti-tournament bias serves no one.
Edited by hgmeyer 3/6/2010 12:26 PM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | tyee - 3/6/2010 11:21 AM
But to "discuss" it with you Stacker.....Public perception is what it is! lots of dead fish at a tournament does not help the sport. believe it or not but the Bass guys figured this out long ago! Tyee
here is where you always seem to be the spokes man for the PUBLIC. I know where the sportsman come from, walleyes for tomarrow and the many many other clubs around the world. They have a voice as they put money into there fisheries and voice there opinions on rules for the system when they come up. Otter street puts thousands more fish back in the system than the few walleyes that die over them making the moneys needed to put them fish back. Now, this public that you state is up in arms, can you direct me to there website where they have united agaist tournaments? Can you give me a phone number of just one united effort to stop this cruelty to animals and fish that have been killed for the sake of entertainment? Or do we all just sit back and let you tell us how they are all UP IN ARMS and you guys JUST BETTER believe me when I speak? I have yet to see people pickiting outside a weigh in for it to stop. Show me something that makes you right. Just because you believe it does not make it the truth.
This is not an attack on the man, but the mans words. |
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| HG, don't forget the third and best choice......you don't even need to take them into posession
which of those three do you think the public would be more receptive of?
Good Luck
Tyee
Stacker oh yes it is an attack on the man! Or have you just spent your life selling water ski toys and are oblivious to the truth? I belong to many groups that don't necissarly share my views and some that do but to back up MY statements and what I know, I'll point you in the direction so you can seek out the truth yourself, otherwise it's a pointless discussion:
Search the net dude, it's an amazing tool that lots of people use to voice their displeasure! There are a lot of websites where polls have been done, there are numerous articles for all kinds of species bass, redfish, walleye and even the deep sea Marlin tourneys south of the border where someone has vented thier displeasure in competative angling or a fish kill publically, tarnishing the image.
News channels have repeatedly reported every competitive "fish kill" and only recently have they started showing both sides. The Bass guys improved their "image" problem years ago, now others have to step up to the plate and many are and some are being forced by new regulations.
You can argue that this is just one mans perception. And you have read my rants on the subject right here on this website and others for nearly 10 years. As for being the voice of the public, I'd rather that you consider that the voice being used is one that has helped to improve this perception over those years and tourney directors are making those changes to better inform the public that the bennefits outweigh the shortcommings. Merc nats are evidence of that today!
My credentials are short but contain a fair amount of knowledge on the subject. Numerous people in my family work in the public eye of this industry and I deal with people around the midwest daily in all industries including this one so I "hear" it ALL, the good the bad AND the fugly, SO to your point,,,,,,,,these are NOT only my views my friend, they do call that hearsay. If you are my judge and jury I AM guilty
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 3/7/2010 8:04 AM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I as well as others should not have to do a "Internet Search" for these so called polls, be the MAN you say you are and post the links to the facts. show your cards or everything you say is just hearsay. period. |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Tyee,
What is it that gives you the right to go out onto the water any time it is legal, catch a limit of fish for you and anyone else in the boat, take them home, forever removing EVERY one of those fish, forever, from the lake, but does not give me the same right to go out and catch a limit of fish for me and the other guy in my boat that we release, giving all or some of those fish back to the lake?
Simple question. Even using your numbers I am putting back at least 50-60% of what I catch. Your logic seems flawed. If you are arguing about "rights", I do not have fewer or lesser rights. If it is "damage" to the resource you have agreed none is really done. If it is "perception" why not educate? What do you really want? What IS your goal?
Somewhere, the answer has to be articulated by you, not me. |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | As a separate issue; I AM part of the PUBLIC, so what I "want" is just as relevant as what you or the mythical/generic "public" want in this discussion. As a matter of fact, if anything, based on what I contribute to conservation, directly, and indirectly, I probably have a whole lot more positive impact on the viability of the resource than your generic "public", so maybe I ought to have more "say". |
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| I fished Merc for 9 years and Otter for 16. I also heard people talking about what percent of the fish released died. Yet I never seen one walleye floating around the lake. A simple solution is to make a giant boom net in a circle. Netting will sink down about 4 feet. The live walleyes will swim out under the net and the dead stay floating and contained. Now count them. If this is not done then everyone should keep there numbers to themselves because they are just lies. I also know more fish survive from tournament fishermen then the weekend people who need to fill the freezer. |
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| MDNR did a kill survey at Mille Lacs in the 90's, they kept all walleye in containment and it was something like 50% kill the day after and 100% kill 3 days after the tournament. When I get back out there in a couple of weeks I'll see if Gary can dig up the paperwork. Not saying containment may not have had a percentage to do with it.
Tyee is correct about the perception...however I think it is not directed broadly at tournaments as it is in the organized competition for money on the water. This is no different than how a greater share of the public views parties driving for deer or hunters using dogs to track bear. It looks like a gross abuse of the public recourses, warranted or not.
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | RNT... I know of only one published "study" that had good scientific protocols. (Systematic steps, repeatable results, and tight controls on variables). That did "see" a correlation between water temp and post release mortality. It was done on Francis Case. It ended with a conclusion that further study was needed to derive better results before all factors could be considered and definitive data correlations could be published. However, it did have one factor that impressed me, no mortality in the non-tournament captured control fish. That was absolutely attributed to the fact that the control fish and the tournament captured fish were kept in moving water. They were not kept in containment nets in still water. That study noted that in "other studies' with control fish kept in nets, pens, tanks, etc. without moving water there was statistical mortality of the control fish. They concluded that the stress of containment without moving water caused the mortality. So, the MDNR study you reference, with static pens, was discredited in two ways, there were no control fish kept in identical circumstances which exhibited no mortality to compare to the mortality of the tournament fish and the Francis Case study trends to prove that containment under some circumstances causes mortality without adding a factor of having been caught and kept in a livewell.
Also, let's discuss a plan to change 'PERCEPTION" (better defined as an unreasonable, unjustified 'PREJUDICE' against tournament fishing) that tournaments cause harm to the fishery. |
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| With regards to previous posts on cheating, how about just providing each team with Cull Tags like the MWC is doing? In my eyes that is the way to go if you are gonna limit it to 6 fish in the livewell and done. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Oh, and bye the way, I want only the studies or comments from the public on the winnebago chain. We are discussing the perception of the merc national not some southern redneck refish guys. Not some minnesota studys and not studies in general. I want actual groups that have formed or tv time given to these groups OUTRAGED at the kill during winnebago tournaments. |
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| http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/wnrmag/html/stories/2006/jun06/fishcon.h...
http://afsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8675%281996%29016%3C036... |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Read carefully, the first citation is an "opinion/exposition" piece. Not a scientific study. The second, while bearing the very well respected name of Kendal Kamke...read the abstract carefully... The word "estimated" is used before any statistics. Enough said, and the fact that it is cited in a long list of articles is only repeating the estimates.
Also, Kamke's opinions from 1996 is far different than those held today.
I hate to be such a skeptic, but the science is not there... |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | I have repeatedly asked for a study of "hooking" mortality of walleyes to see if just being caught is the cause of post release mortality. I do not know of any such study, but am interested if someone does.
There are so many variables and factors to examine... is it being caught by hook and line... is it being in a livewell... does adequate oxygenation and temperature control negate the effects, if any of the livwell "experience? How about "netting"... do certain kinds of nets do harm or some less harm? Depth caught? Time in the livewell... And, on and on... Then there are the pre-weigh-in tanks... If they are too cold or too hot... oxygenenated or not... See what needs to be studied.
I am all for improvements... I am all for striving for "0" mortality... But, progress will only come from scientific effort not emotion of estimates. |
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| hgmeyer,
Asking for a specific scientific study on public opinion for the Winnebago system is chasing a dog you know is not there and never will be. The DNR does recognize that public opinion of tournaments is in the negative, and ignoring it because of a lack of a science study is puzzling.
If there is a need of a study to verify or debunk the issue of public perception then that funding should be coming from the fishermen. If a survey were done today I am willing to wager that 80% of the public would be in two categories when it comes to tournaments...they either dislike them or they could care less about them...and both categories would probably say tournaments hurt the fishing.
I don't think the greater portion of tournament fishermen seem to care too much what the public thinks anyhow. It is shown that the tournaments do not affect the fisheries in any major way...so why waste time on people who are just plain wrong.
This industry just plain old sucks at public relations.
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| As for the mortality rate, for Winnebago there is not a study I know of. Not sure why other studies should not be looked at as a basis. |
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| in a ten minute search i found a few while not Winnebago it is the closest resemblance...these are numbers from professionals and what they are doing about it.
http://www.perm.org/pdfs/TreatyManagement.pdf
This is one from Canada in the winter even the cold weather they had 10%
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/MNR_E005345.pdf
Heres an article claiming 25% in MN warm water!
http://www.minnesotaoutdoornews.com/articles/2010/01/21/top_news/ne...
Mille Lacs adjusts its management plan for warm water months
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/07/13/millelacsli...
http://www.minnesotaoutdoornews.com/articles/2010/01/21/top_news/ne...
Most all other studies I have seen around the country claim between 10 and 25% ....so it is what it is! It can be picked apart in many ways but you have to use some sort of number. MN did a great 2 year study in '04/'05 on Mille Lacs where officers and the genearal public participated in a $175k mortality study and while it showed great success in cold waters, the mid summer months were not so successful. I have not found the whole study but have read excerpts of it and the above management plans appear to use the data from that study.
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 3/8/2010 11:46 PM
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| At least you got Walleye tourneys to fish. regardless of the rules... I can find about a half dozen here in NY but some still have the word derby... Enjoy... |
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| Guest - 3/8/2010 9:39 AM With regards to previous posts on cheating, how about just providing each team with Cull Tags like the MWC is doing? In my eyes that is the way to go if you are gonna limit it to 6 fish in the livewell and done. Bingo. Cull tags are the first step, and then actually checking boats is the second. They simply must be able to enforce the rule or you may as well not even have it. |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Tyee,
I read every word of the artiucles and monographs you posted.
Unfortunately, any of the so called studies have huge holes in the science. I know you will have a hard time swallowing this, but, the usual methodology of employing holding pens and observing mortality will result in 15-25% or more mortality of fish period. It has been proven that that method, holding fish in pens kills many of the fish.
RNT,
I don't think I asked for a study on perception, although that would be a good idea. Also, a focus group and a before and after survey would be very useful. But, if the DNR would be honest as opposed to PC, they would be on the edge in educating the public that tournaments are not bad for the resource. |
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Location: Rhinelander | If a team is disposed to be less than honest, the tags won't guarantee anything. Gotta actually attach the tag to make the system work, and there has to be a credible risk boats may be checked during the event to force that issue.
Changing the format to Boater/Co Boater would help, AIM's CRR format would lock the issue up. Both would be difficult to get done for a bunch of reasons. |
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