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Location: Combined Locks, WI | I did go back out and look. At the very top of the plate it does say US Coast Gaurd Maximum Capacities. It then reads 6 persons or 840 pounds followed by 1425 pounds - persons, gear and motors. Then it says Max HP 250
it also says: This boat complies with US coast gaurd saftey standards
Jon Piette
Edited by crestliner 11/4/2004 6:32 PM
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| Steve, thanks for chiming in. I was wondering how long before you gave a manufacturers perspective...So please if you don't mind...what is your perception of what the FLW has done? I think they have lots of egg on their face again!
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| Yes, because after reading the story again, it didn't say whether or not he had a rating plate of any kind in his boat. I would be interested in knowing that information before making a judgement either way.
Juls |
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Location: Rhinelander | The builder isn't required to place a ratings plate on the boat ONLY if the boat is over 20'. The FLW has themselves in a darned if you do and don't situation here. The rules state a plate has to be there, but logic states clearly that if the boat is over 20' and the horsepower 250 or under, the angler is complying with the rules if the idea is to confirm the boat rates for the motor attached to it. Rules ARE rules, but in this case I feel the FLW needs to simply measure the boat and offer a variance if it's over 20' long.
The FLW may, playing devil's advocate here, be looking for the plate and in fact require it to insure the boat has been tested because of potential liability, but that's a grey area from what I read. My question would be; If the builder had a NON Coast Guard ratings plate indicating the boat might not have been tested but it's over 20' and rated for unlimited horsepower, would the angler have had this problem? If the answer to that question is no the FLW needs to clarify the rule for PR's sake. |
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| sworrall - 11/5/2004 8:33 AM
My question would be; If the builder had a NON Coast Guard ratings plate indicating the boat might not have been tested but it's over 20' and rated for unlimited horsepower, would the angler have had this problem? If the answer to that question is no the FLW needs to clarify the rule for PR's sake.
I agree with your above statement, and that's basically what I'm asking...did he have any kind of plate in the boat? If NOT, that may be the whole issue. It would then have been up to the angler to take care of that detail before fishing any events with that boat. We just don't know that information, so its impossible to speculate on whether or not he has a case against the FLW organization.
Juls |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin |
If I read rule 9 correctly, he would still have this problem and so would anyone else with a boat over 20'. The manufacturer's plate would not be enough because they (FLW) specificly ask for a Coast Guard plate. And a Coast Guard plate will not be issued to any boat over 20' SO...... the FLW is trying to apply a rule that causes all owners of boats over 20' to be in non-compliance.
I do a gree with Juls that we need to hear more facts....... something is not right here.............. Did someone protest? Was this the first time that someone protested?(if someone did) Has the FLW assumed that the manufacturer plates were in fact Coast Guard approval Plates......... none of this adds up................ There's more to this story that we are not hearing. Why did they keep this guy for 20 minutes, checking over his boat with flashlights, prior to take off on day 3 .............that didn't sound normal either.
Edited by Sunshine 11/5/2004 8:33 AM
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Location: Laurel, MT | I have a call into the Coast Guard Chief that was quoted in the article and a number for the Auxiliary Chief that is responsible for testing in the Chicago area. I will be talking with both today and will contact Charlie and Sonny at FLW once I have a good understanding on the plate requirements as seen by the USCG.
Honsie |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Thanks Duane!!!
Now that's taking matters into your own hands.
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Location: Neenah, WI | Just to satisfy my own curiosity I checked my Crestliner 202 RCL edition, model year 2002.
It says: U.S. Coast Guard maximum capacities, Then it lists weight and number of passengers, etc. On the bottom of the plate it says: This boat complies with U.S. Coast Guard safety standards in effect on date of certification. I'm assuming here that this means it's Coast Guard approved. There's no USCG insignia or anything. Maybe the regs have changed in the last year or 2. |
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Location: Rhinelander | That tag indicates the boat was tested by a compliance specialist. If the boat is tested, and passes, the liability issue is taken care of. The tests used, and the folks performing those tests, are done by compliance specialists who DO NOT work for the USCG, they are private contractors. The USCG simply establishes the requirements and expects builders to comply.
Tuffy, for example, is NMMA rated and requires a plate up to 26'. That requires a plate that the boat was tested using USGC standards for level and upright flotation, horsepower, and fuel systems.
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Location: Sioux Falls, South Dakota | Steve, I believe the boat was a Viper and they are no longer made. However the Venom boat company purchased Viper. I still don't know if they place a USCG plate on their 20' plus Venoms though. |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Now the FLW has issued a "clarification" that is almost "too weird". They "interpret" their rulle to require either a CG plate or an MFG plate; (The clarification states; "no boat may be used that does not clearly indicate the maximum horsepower and weight limits set by the manufacturer and/or the U.S. Coast Guard.") although their language is unambiguous in requiring a CG plate (no manufacturers alternative plate is mentioned or even hinted at in the language of rule 9). Well, if the FLW can interpret their rule to add language that isn't there... why can't a partcicipant add language to "find" a different exception for boats that don't require a CG plate. Clearly, if the rule isn't "black and white" then any reasonable interpretation prior to this published "clarification" is just as reasonable as the FLW's. If it is not clear then reasonable interpretations are acceptable.
The rule, despite the clarification, does not require a manufaturers attached plate...it requires a Coast Guard plate. The rule states; "Each boat must have a U.S. Coast Guard horsepower rating plate attached to the boat by the manufacturer." This "clarification" is really a post event rewrite of the rule... It's like they are saying, regardless of what we said it is not what we meant... we meant to say.... etc.
This does not help the FLW's case, rather it weakens it considerably.
http://www.flwoutdoors.com/article.cfm?id=142303
Edited by hgmeyer 11/5/2004 10:05 PM
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Well................. basicly all they did was add "and/or" to the rule. It does make sense but may be too late. Obviuosly it's too late for this guy and it will probually be too late to deter a law suit.
I think the FLW learned a lot more about capacity plates in the last few days then they ever knew before.!!!!!! I know I did.
Tournament fishermen from around the country, whether they fish for bass, walleye or muskie, learned a great deal from this!! "Thank You's" go out to Steve, Duane and others for helping us all understand how the industry works!! |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Well, actually, they addes the "and/or" language to the "clarification". Get this, the website STILL has the rule reading; " Each boat must have a U.S. Coast Guard horsepower rating plate attached to the boat by the manufacturer." So, if you follow the "rules"... the "and/or" is not yet a rule... More confusion... As my Daddy said; "they are still gigging frogs wearing a blindfold".... "so their toes are in danger"!
Edited by hgmeyer 11/6/2004 8:22 AM
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| I remember early this year when I stipped one boat and placed all my equipment on a new boat, including a 225 Merc, which the dealer told me the boat was rated for. A week later I was putting rods in the locker and happened to glance at the ratings plate which clearly stated the max HP at 200. What a sick feeling, but the dealer traded me even up for a new 200,(the 225 had some "serios" hours" on it.
The spirit of the rule is to insure that contestants do not jeopardize the safety of themselves or their passengers by overpowering their boats. I clearly think that this boat was in fact rated for 250 HP, therefor he should not have been DQ'd. The FLW should have recognized this was their problem in the rules and fixed AFTER this situation.
What should we do with an angler that KNOWS his boat is overpowered and fishes out of it anyways?
Rob |
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| BFL angler disqualification clarified
Wal-Mart Bass Fishing League
05.Nov.2004
For 25 years, FLW Outdoors has operated on the principles of integrity, fair play and wholesome, family-oriented competition. These principles, applied equally to all competitors, under all circumstances, without regard to background or industry affiliation, have allowed FLW Outdoors to grow competitive fishing from its southern roots into a truly national pastime enjoyed by thousands of men and women every year.
Recently FLW Outdoors disqualified an angler for violating a rule titled “Boat and Horsepower Regulation” that requires all boats in FLW Outdoors competition to have a plate attached by the manufacturer that displays capacity information. The boat used by the competitor who was disqualified had no plate.
The intent of this rule is to ensure that all boats used during competition are safe and will not endanger competitors or the boating public. In the case of boats that have no capacity information displayed, FLW Outdoors’ ability to ensure safe competition is diminished. Therefore, no boat may be used that does not clearly indicate the maximum horsepower and weight limits set by the manufacturer and/or the U.S. Coast Guard.
FLW Outdoors has an obligation to its competitors and the sport to enforce its rules, in letter and intent, without exception. These rules are readily available to all competitors and the general public. Furthermore, competitors sign a release indicating that they have read and fully understand the rules and that they willingly agree to comply with the terms and conditions for participation. The competitor who was disqualified signed this release.
It is our strongly held belief that the intent of this rule is noble and its enforcement is necessary to ensure safety.
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Location: Rhinelander | That's the response I expected. Liability, plain and simple. If the boat has a tag, it's easy to be sure the rig isn't overpowered as far as the builder is concerned. As an example, the new Tuffy 2060 could rate for any horsepower, but the builder limits it to 250. |
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| Point well taken, Steve. |
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| It's just as I suspected, he didn't have a plate of any kind in the boat.
Without typing out then entire entry form...I will only type the sentence pertaining to this subject.
blah blah blah...."I have read this release of liability and assumption of risk agreement, and the attached rules, fully understand their terms, and understand that I have given up substantial rights by signing it, and sign it freely and voluntarily."
What do they always say, "Never sign anything without reading it first"?
A lesson that BFL angler had to learn the hard way. That's too bad.
He won't get the money or the boat, but I'm sure no one will ever forget his name. 
Juls
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Is this how the rule read, EXACTLY, before they changed it after this event, and made it read, US Coast guard and/or a manufacturers plate?
The applicable rule (FLW rule No. 9) states: "Maximum horsepower for all outboards used in tournament competition will be 250 HP, not to exceed the horsepower limitations as set by the U.S. Coast Guard. Each boat must have a U.S. Coast Guard horsepower rating plate attached to the boat by the manufacturer." (The same rule applies to EverStart and FLW Tour events.)
All supporters of him getting booted maybe better take a second read to this. It states that a US Coast guard horsepower rating plate needs to be attached by the manufacturer, Not a Manufacturers suggested HP Rating plate. If over 20 ft' it would only have a manufacturers plate, not a US Coast guard plate. They only changed it after they got there perverbial ___ in a ringer. Be careful whos camp you are in before you go pitching a tent. Weird stuff could happen to all of us as well in the future. Wording is very GRAY. |
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| Who's Name?
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| LOL..you're bad! |
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| In Kevin's case it didn't matter what the wording was. He didn't have any kind of plate. That's what the problem was all along. |
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| Juls and Steve, I appreciate your position on this but I can not accept the position of the FLW. Stacker is right on this one and the previous wording without the and/or is what should be followed and if this is the case he should not be DQ'd in my mind. I will be thinking very hard about weather or not I continue to follow or support the FLW circuits. Yes a certification of the boat should be made by the manufacturer but to limit it to 250hp when not required by law is silly. If FLW wants to limit the hp to 250hp that is fine! Did his boat have a motor larger than that? Still lots of egg on their face if you ask me!
Good Luck
Tyee |
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