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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Tyee, I totally agree with you about the pros mixing and mingling with the crowd. Here is the downfall. Many guys are at an event on the big circuits I'm talking for up to a week in advance. Three or four days of solid fishing, waking up very early and late nights. Think about how you would feel after a tournament? I guarantee from seeing Gary Parsons the other day that he was exhausted. I know Gary and if someone would come up to him he would be the professional he is and would sit and talk to anyone. But fish as hard as he did for three straight days, tell me after those couple days how you would feel about wanting to stick around? Also, guys have families, a lot of them want to get the heck out of the area and get back to there families, with many of them going from one event to the next such as the guys who fished the PWT last week, were heading straight from there to Red Wing to do it all over again. However, Friday of last week, many of them were there standing around and talking and being professional. But after spending a full season last year on the road and seeing these guys progress through a week, I don't think it's something that should be made mandatory at all. Another thing on top of that, lots of guys don't stick around because once they weigh in, they have to keep moving through so the next guy can take his spot at the docks. It's a big job to keep things running smoothly, because if you don't, then it looks unprofessional. So that would be another reason for guys not sticking around. However, they could come back to the weigh in.
Edited by Merckid 5/2/2007 6:16 PM
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| Merckid- I normally agree with and enjoy your posts, but I must disagree with your water weigh-in thinking. There are so many other factors involved, it would be virtually impossible to study the effects of the water weigh in system by itself, so we must use common sense. Common sense tells me that keeping the fish in water (they do their best to keep it temperature constant) while weighing them is far more beneficial than doing it dry. I'm not saying it is going to keep all the fish alive, but ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, how can it NOT be better?
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| "The reason for not using the clear tanks is that it comes down to an image thing. I know, I to like seeing the fish in the clear tanks that the FLW use but I can recall one tournament last year that a lot of people would have been up in arms about seeing fish getting weighed in and not being in water. But this is the reason why the PWT does not use the clear tanks, also, biologists have shown that fish mortality in livewells that are blacked out and holding tanks like the big black cow tanks that fish mortality is better with the dark tanks. Another thing that has been proven that fish mortality rate with a water weigh-in such as the FLW is more for image. It's been proven that this kind of a weigh-in does not increase the chances any more than a non water weigh-in."
I'd like to see your sources that back up your OPINION, TJ. I don't think there is any data out there that would amount to a hill of beans other than one's opinion on weather it would make a difference. I do think people being able to see the fish will make a difference....even if the fish are dead. Yes, you'll always have some public perception of tourneys killing fish no matter what. We're not trying to win over the people that are anti-tourney. We're trying to win over the fans and get them more excited/involved.
I stick by my guns....I WANNA SEE THE FISH!
Edited by Jayman 5/3/2007 8:23 AM
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| http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/images/main_050207.jpg
Take a look at this link. I'm curious to how many people think it would be a better picture with just two guys standing in the picture and a caption that says Day 1 leaders. Or do the fish make the picture worth a 1000 words? I rest my case. |
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| TJ, the FLW holding tanks are dark we are only talking about the actual weigh basket being clear, so you can see the fish when they are being weighed and carried on the stage. Also the only difference between the time PWT are out of water and the time FLW fish are out of water in when the fish are actually being weighed, but, like someone else said, how can that be bad?
What would this picture say with an opaque basket? Not much. For all you'd know he was carrying a bunch of laundry.
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Zach, ya, I swore I read holding tanks prior to getting on stage were clear. But maybe I just misread that part of it, my bad.
I agree for taking pictures and letting people see the fish those baskets are the way to go, I'm not disagreeing with anyone there. What I'm saying though, believe it or not. But that is an image thing, and I think circuits that don't use clear baskets are making a better choice personally. I guess in my opinion, why give people more fuel to make controversy about how fish get handled at tournaments? That's my question.
Edited by Merckid 5/3/2007 9:37 AM
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| Here are the holding tanks. They are all aluminum I believe.
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| And the image/sound of fish flopping around in white baskets out of water on stage is a better image than them seeing the fish swimming exactly how?
Sure if someone is looking to complain about something they can complain if they see a floater in a clear tank. But that same person isn't already complaining about the fish flopping around with no water?
If it was truly a case of the PWT worrying about the "image" of the fish, then the weighing would be done backstage and the pro would just come up to talk about his weight that was being displayed. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Merckid - 5/2/2007 6:12 PM
Tyee, I totally agree with you about the pros mixing and mingling with the crowd. Here is the downfall. Many guys are at an event on the big circuits I'm talking for up to a week in advance. Three or four days of solid fishing, waking up very early and late nights. Think about how you would feel after a tournament? I guarantee from seeing Gary Parsons the other day that he was exhausted. I know Gary and if someone would come up to him he would be the professional he is and would sit and talk to anyone. But fish as hard as he did for three straight days, tell me after those couple days how you would feel about wanting to stick around? Also, guys have families, a lot of them want to get the heck out of the area and get back to there families, with many of them going from one event to the next such as the guys who fished the PWT last week, were heading straight from there to Red Wing to do it all over again. However, Friday of last week, many of them were there standing around and talking and being professional. But after spending a full season last year on the road and seeing these guys progress through a week, I don't think it's something that should be made mandatory at all. Another thing on top of that, lots of guys don't stick around because once they weigh in, they have to keep moving through so the next guy can take his spot at the docks. It's a big job to keep things running smoothly, because if you don't, then it looks unprofessional. So that would be another reason for guys not sticking around. However, they could come back to the weigh in.
The part of mingling amongst the crowd is not directly related to the last day of competition TJ, you may have mis understood the object. In dirt bike racing, snowmobile racing, in competitive water skiing, the contract pro's are required to sit at tables and sign auto graphs and talk with the public. Sure, they are out of the sun and they are getting the fluids and rest they need after competing and there are over seer's making sure that over zeleous fans do not get to pushy. This has not happened in competitive fishing. I do know that ego's will be sprung when they get asked to be at the table. T.J. without attacking you,but, You have a tendancy to buck up for the way things are being done now, and thats good, the devils advocate, BUT, do you know the definition of insanity? let me tell you, "Keep doing what you are doing now and expect something to change". Its impossible to grow the sport by continuing to do things status quo. I believe that the ceiling is being reached. With good input from the fan base, such as this thread, the circuits can make a decision to be on the cutting edge. Lets just think about the FLW. They have there core sponsors who are now wrapping boats. Don't you think that Juls and Gain, Keenan and chevy st.peter and e-cell should meet and greet for there money? Besides that, even though a fan recognizes someone in the crowd, they may not walk up to them when they are in conversation and say hi. At the table, well enough said.
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | and for the record T.J., I totally disagree with all your statements regarding the tanks, tubs and the stats that you cannot produce regarding weigh in mortality and the tanks they use. The need to see fish is much greater for the sport. Wanna get people over the mortality of fish? Have some one filleting everyone of the dead ones and make free fish sandwiches for the crowd. Stuff some hot walleye in there mouth and they will stop complaining that a few fish died. |
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| "I agree for taking pictures and letting people see the fish those baskets are the way to go, I'm not disagreeing with anyone there. What I'm saying though, believe it or not. But that is an image thing, and I think circuits that don't use clear baskets are making a better choice personally."
I'm hearing a lot of talk out of both sides of your mouth. But that's just an opinion. 
I agree with How's comment...."If it was truly a case of the PWT worrying about the "image" of the fish, then the weighing would be done backstage and the pro would just come up to talk about his weight that was being displayed." Sarcasm added, TJ, do you honestly think that would be the best image for walleye tournaments?
And please spare me the private messages that say I'm picking on you. Learn to accept the fact that your idea may not be the best idea.
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Location: Rhinelander | I see good points from all sides of this discussion. Please remember, ideas are just that, and will be accepted or rejected based on each person's personal perspective. All are entitled to opinions and ideas, as long as we present them in a respectful and reasonable manner. Fighting over ideas has a tendency to 'go personal' pretty quickly, which in this case would be a shame.
What is 'best'? I would venture to say that is up to each circuit in the end, and that was not the question. Keep in mind that you may not necessarily be the target of the circuit's weigh in protocol, some of that may be for the onsite crowd, some for TV, and some for Media present during the weigh in.
What would YOU like to see? Why?
Also, keep in mind these events go on for 3 to 4 days. It may not be practical for the Pros to remain for crowd interaction, for way more than the simple reason that they do, in most cases, have to get the rig out of the water and off site because of space availability. I'd be reluctant in some areas to leave my rig offsite while returning to sign autographs. If the anglers have to take the rig to the hotel, campground, etc, by the time they get it buttoned up and make ther way back, the weigh in is over. The weigh ins last two hours, wrapping up at about 5 PM. The crowd is gone fast as soon as the last angler weighs in. IMHO, the crowds are there to see the fish and the competition. |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | I too like to see all the names.. i too have had a ZERO on the back side of my name on a few tournys ... but when i look at the results i look for friends and names i recognize .. when i see a zero fish count for the bottom half of the field i know the bite was hard.. and when i see a few names on the list who i know are acceptional anglers and they have 1 or no fish .. i know how hard it was out there.. this creates more value for the guys at the top of the list. 5 fish 8 lbs to win a tournament means one thing, but it is another if there were only 2 boats out of 125 with a 5 fish day... and if only half the field braught fish to the stage.. well you get my point... BUT,,,, i do understand that it takes a lot of time and staff to put a tournament togather ... i know to sit down and put it all on line is also sometimes hard to get done. forgive us for the request for more information.. more more more.. i guess we just cant get enough.. its an illness ... but thanks for all the hard work.. to jim and all the other tournament directors and staff.. brad |
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| Ok I'll disagree with you Steve the crowds are there to hear where they are biting and what they are biting on. and possibly google at the nice rigs. (quite a few are there to see if their help payed off). Maybe have their kids get an autograph from their favorite pro! and I'm sure there are others reasons but......If you want to grow the sport you need STARS! and the only way that is going to happen is to put them in front of the audience a 30 minute TV show isn't going to do it!. If they can't make it after weigh in's maybe there needs to be a formal dinner event where monies are charged for a seat and it's donated to charity. Possibly a meet and greet that everyone needs to attend before the start. but to say they cant attend because they have to pack and hit the road to the next tourney is silly! They HAVE to find ways to get the public involved with the Pros directly! It is done in every other major sport! Maybe it should be mandatory that everyone appears at a bait shop in that state! hummm. I don't have the answers but there needs to be more involvement regarding public perception of tournaments. |
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Location: Rhinelander | The PWT and FLW do hold events during prefish that involve the public.
There are many practical problems with the idea of 120 pros and Co Anglers staying onsite to sign autographs, some of which have been mentioned.
Off water weigh ins might be more user friendly for that concept, but keep in mind there might be as many as 120 pros there, meaning 120 boats on trailers. At Red Wing there are multiple pros who are launching at the resort they are staying in, another landing, or whatever. The parking lot here is about a 5 minute walk, and would require a few 'guards' if the pros had to stay at the weigh in. What is being suggested would be tactical nightmare, but might be sometimes, but not always possible.
Most sporting venues have arenas, tracks, or other facilities designed for the crowds and the participants, yet ALL Walleye tournaments need to use public access ramps and get by with the weigh in there or close by. Kill events allow for off site weigh ins, usually a parking lot at a local retail facility, and during those many of the Pros remain to watch the weigh in finish up. FLW has, of course, the Wal Mart final day weigh in, and the 10 remaining Pros do hang around for awhile. Still, within minutes after the event, POOF, no crowd. I'm mixing with that crowd for the entire event, and do see some autographs getting signed, especially on kid's hats.
'Every other major sport'..... I know what you mean, but 'other major sports' have arenas, the crowd is restrained by where they are required to sit, and the 'stars' rarely just walk through the bleachers mixing with the crowd saying hello and signing autographs after the game. Additional events designed to get the public and the Anglers together are the key, and the PWT and FLW both occasionally offer them.
A REALLY big crowd is about 1000. Any more than that, and the stage would be too far for anyone to see it, anyway. Weigh in's are not in arena settings except for the PWT Championships, (FLW uses a tent designed for top shelf TV coverage) but could be if the sport grows enough to support the concept. The cost is HUGE, and logistics very difficult. The venue would most certainly severely limit the waters where events could be held just because of the necessary facility.
Side note, I meant the 'fish and the competition' to include all that is said and seen on stage. |
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| Additional comment regarding meet the pros....a number of years ago there use to be this circuit called the RCL. Known as the FLW today. When the RCL started out with their RCL Championship they had the night before the tourney started a segment of time called "Meet the Pro's night". There must be a good reason why the FLW did not continue this. Any guesses? I'd be willing to guess that enough fans didn't come out for it. Just a guess.
I think it's possible to organize some kind of "Meet the Pro's", but I'm not sure if the fans want it. Perhaps it needs to be PROMOTED better. I think the people that do want the autographs from the pro's are getting them. At the PWT weigh-in last Friday. I saw someone walking around that was wearing an orange hat and had a bunch of signatures on their hat. So the opportunity does exist.
Again, I'm not sure the fans want it. I'm part of the Sheboygan Walleye club, we had the opportunity to get Tom Kemos. Which our club did not show enough interest to be willing to pay the amount that would be required to bring in a top name pro for a "meet and greet" session with the club. Along with gaining pro knowledge information. As a club I'd say we are all fans or tournament fishing.
Promote it and the fans will come. |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Jayman,
The PWT has the PWT school at every event. You probably know about it but it usually consists of about 2 or 3 pros putting on a presentation relative to that certain body of water. So last year for example, we were on Devils Lake, Tom Backer and Dave Randash put on a presentation about corking and what you need to look for as to what areas will be better than others. They also incorporated other tactics such as throwing crankbaits and pitchin jigs. They have these school at every event. Not always with great turnouts but they have them. Not every place or venue has the resources to do things like meet and greets with the pros but when they do they really try to. It's hard to put things on like this when the tournaments start in the middle of the week and end on a Friday or Saturday. For example, there was a meet and greet put on by Critters in Winneconne I believe the day of the tournament. I know the PWT championship of course has multiple opportunities for meet and greets. As well as many pros visiting area schools.
Now to regards of what Stacker comments to me about. Stacker, it isn't that I'm trying to play Devils Advocate, I think it takes time for change, you can't make such sudden changes and expect them to fly without some kind of uproar. When things have been done one way for so long, and trying to change so much at once I don't see it happening. I'm all for your ideas, but I'm looking in hindsight and from what I saw last year that the sport isn't ready for some stuff. Look how long it took B.A.S.S to get where there at. This can't and won't happen overnight, it didn't happen overnight for B.A.S.S. Believe me, I want this sport to grow and prosper as much as everyone here wants it to but it takes time and little steps lead to bigger steps. What OutdoorsFirst is doing here is definitely in the right direction that the sport is needing, but I can bet if you ask Mr. Worrall that this all hasn't happened overnight, it's taken time for this site to get where it's at now, and on the verge of really taking off like it's co-sight MuskieFirst. |
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| PWT school at every event. If that is the case then it is poorly promoted. I was at 2 of the 3 days of weigh-in at the Winnecone PWT event and watched it live right here on WalleyeFirst for day 2. Not at any time was I aware of or heard of a PWT school. Poorly promoted.
Getting the fans involved with the Pro's is a good idea, how is the question.
As for change, I believe many of the ideas that are agreed upon thus far are not huge changes, some of them carry a financial burden with them but nothing that I would consider a deal breaker. If these are radical changes then I'm all for radical. I don't believe that's the case, I do believe that these are changes that this sport has been longing for, just that they haven't been obvious.
I WANNA SEE THE FISH!!! (hehehe makes me think of the Brown truck) |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | TJ, I really do not understand where you are coming from. You state that "you can't make sudden changes and expect them to fly without some kind of uproar". T.J. , what the heck do you mean? Whoooooo is going to be in a uproar if the circuits post the lists of competitors 5 days in advance. Whoooooo will be in a uproar over being able to see the fish at a weigh in. Whooooooo will be in a uproar over the circuits compiling a complete list of results at the end of the event. I don't mean to be a no it all TJ but I have not just watched this sport for a year or two, I have watched it and competed in it for 20 years. I would like to know who would be in a uproar over 5 super pro's sitting at a table after a day on the water talking to the fans of the sport. I want to know who, because we should talk to them. Logistics. easy! At winneconne they could have roped off the area on the road right out front. The rigs could have had volunteers to help pull out. They could have scheduled the guys from the first flight each day at the tables 15 an event, x 6 events 90 guys. The only thing holding them back, is most the guys will not do anything for free. This is where the circuit needs to find the sponsor for this event. and pump it up. Don't say it is easier said than done, that is what marketing is all about. This could be the ecederin headache fighter.
Remember, the changes do not have to be large, in fact using your baby step plan, that is exactly what is to be done, baby upgrades. We are not proposing indoor weigh ins, or national TV coverage in prime time, that is totally unrealistic. You need to build the excitement way before such large strides.
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Jayman,
Here you go, every single PWT event that in the past few years have had a PWT school. They get promoted! It's on there website, it gets talked about in that town where there at for that event, people know about it. It's talked about on the radio, any news that decides to cover that event and talked about in the papers at that site. It gets promoted, it just doesn't always get great turnouts. Some places are better than others.
But here is the link where it's posted on In-Fish's website. This school takes place right before the rules meeting, trying to draw the co-anglers there a little bit early for this. That is the whole purpose behind doing it right before the meeting.
http://www.in-fisherman.com/pwt/tournaments/IFP_07WIschedule.pdf
Stacker,
Your comments about roping an area off. Go ahead and try, easier said than done that's all I have to say to that!
Now I am heading north to go and do some fishing for the weekend. All I have simply tried to do is give input on what I have seen. I guess all I can say is I know what I know, and I learned what I learned first hand and why. Trying to explain it to someone with difference of opinion well I guess that's where freedom of speech comes into play.
Have a wonderful opening weekend all and good fishing!
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| T.J., I eat, sleep, breathe fishing.....literally. Many people think I'm nuts, "to each thier own" I say. With that said, I did not hear nor was I aware of the PWT school. I like to consider myself a fan of the sport and a person who is in the know compared to the Avg Joe. (Sorry WF'er Avg. Joe). I don't have any recollection of people I know talking about the PWT school. Again, I say poorly promoted.
Don't take this as arguing, I think it's great discussion. I think these very simple idea's as Stacker discussed are baby steps in the right direction.
Good luck fishing. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | TJ good luck with your fishing this weekend. Try to calm down man.
Now back to the discussion.
If the school was designed for the public, they never told us, again, never told us. I would also like to see the rules meetings open to the public. It would be cool to be at them. Not just sneak in.
Edited by stacker 5/3/2007 3:41 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | So where, other than local media and the PWT Website, would you expect the PWT Schools (designed mostly for Co Anglers, I believe) to be promoted, and how? Where do you get your other In Fisherman PWT News? |
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| OK, I spent 15 days in Winneconne and live locally, I never heard anything about a PWT school, and am (almost) as passionate about fishing as Jayman. I did hear about a single event at Critters for a couple of pros......but like someone else said that can get pricy..It should be MANDATORY for every pro that signs up to put in a couple of hours community service for the community be it promoting the event or their sponsors but definately a community service, like they did here the day after the tourn fishing with kids. Or at a local food pantry, community shelter hospital or sport shop at no charge (definately no charge to the hosting community they pay enough to get you guys here!. These services SHOULD be mandatory from the tournament director god knows they make enough money. Steve,,,take a look at Denny's comments he said it better than I did, it wouldn't take much to put the top ten on the final day in a tent for an hour for everyone to meet! And no they shouldn't get paid for that!
These community services look good on a resume but more importantly bennefit you and the community, There is nothing wrong with giving back, this isn't about economics, it's a social issue.
Good Luck
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| Whois, thanks for your constructive comments, they will be considered. Now back to the topic at hand.
Great question, Steve. Is the PWT school aimed at the fans or the amatures/co-anglers? That really is the question. I think it's more for the am's and co-anglers. If it is for the fan it's poorly promoted. Again, as stated before, I'm a "local" and a fan and not once was I aware of a PWT school. Now take it a step further, if it's for the Am's/Co's I think it may lack impact. A good friend of mine fished as an amature, Big fish winner on the am side BTW, I don't recall him mentioning it or talking about the PWT school. He may have been aware of it. But it lacks impact, word of mouth is some of the best advertising.
If they want it for the fan base, which I do believe is a good idea, the more fans that come out on any given day/night equals bigger better things. The back side of that is sponsor exposure. Sponsors want their product/brand/service exposed to as many potential customers as possible, I think this is a given.
How do you get more people to the PWT School, if it's for the fans? one would need to get the drum beating. The more they talk about it at weigh in's people will keep it in mind for the next event. Fliers distributed locally, prior to the event. many of these key pro's that talk in these schools, I would think would be in thier own best interests to get the word out. Local media, TV/newspapers/radios, as you discussed is an option, but carry's a larger financial burder. Yes, their own website, but as most of us know, we visit multiple websites. It should spill over from one website to another, these message boards do have an impact. Many people are reading. Local newspaper, most of them have a short blurb about the tourney adding a sentence regarding thier PWT school wouldn't be painstaking.
Meet the Pro's, it's a good topic and perhaps deserves it own thread. I think a small brainstorm session of ideas by WalleyeFirst'ers alone could generate some realistic ideas and goals.
Edited by Jayman 5/4/2007 8:08 AM
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