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| Yeah, agree.
That specific piece of structure is what I would think would be a mud hump, rock pile or something other than a mud flat. But, I'm not an expert either.
to me flat = no change in depth or gradual slope at best.
But, I like the concept of the game. A little muddy (pun intended) this time, hopefully more structured in the future. Post a pic, guys ask questions, questions get answered and an answer period is set. |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Its neither mud... nor flat.... Sorry, but that isn't making a lot of sense to me.
If you had asked "Where is the boat at the very instant this picture was taken",, I'd say, yeah, just crossed an edge and your now out in some mudd, but you appeared to be asking what the "bump" was. More specifically, you seemed to be implying that the "bump" was a famous piece of structure, not one piece of several thousands of acres of mud.
Edited by Brad B 2/22/2008 4:56 PM
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| Congrats Jerry!
The way I see it, Jerry took less than an hour to figure it out. They can't make the game too obveious, they are giving away a piece of equipment with a higher price tag. The rising ridge at the edge of the flat would be considered part of the structure. |
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Location: Appleton wi | Nice job jerry! I think round 2 will be alittle more competitve knowing more what doc's looking for in answers. Doc is it possible to get some W.P #on that mud flat structure. I'm thinking making a summer visit there this summer! 
Edited by eye Lunker 2/22/2008 5:45 PM
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Thank you one and all!!! I said mud flat because of the drop, the thickness of the bottom on the sonar, and I recall fishing those mud flats on Mille Lacs and seeing that type of drop in the structure. If you fished these area before you'll find the fish tend to be on the upper lip of the structure just before it falls off the edge. They are famous because these structures are well know to Minnesota anglers who fish Mille Lacs, but I can see how someone who has never fished there would be lost for an answer. Just a lucky guess!!! I look forward to receiving the Aqua View and using it this summer!! |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | well, I think it is a nice thing to win. Not quite sure how it all works yet. Jerry just blurted out the most famous structure to MN there is. Maybe Doc is under estimating the crew here. I still think that reading could have been many different kind of structures in many different lakes in many different states. |
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| The structure is a Mille Lacs Lake mud flat. The reason they are called mud flats is that are flat on top. They look like the buttes you see in the West with the flat tops. The mud flat is surrounded by "mud" but these “muds” are different in hardness. The mud flat is hard mud and rare small rock is some places. I have viewed the small rock and I found it at the deepest part on the side of the drop. The surrounding mud is central lake basin mud which is like Winnebago “mud”. It looks like a wingdam because of the transition from one hardness to another and the shape looks the same on the display. All sonar does is display the returning echoes as their distance from the transducer and the strength of the echoes. The display shows the echo strength as whites and grays on a B&W unit and colors on a color unit.
On the first screen capture you all noticed the difference echo strength of the top and bottom depths which was the most important clue. Lowrance’s default screen has white-no echo, blue-weakest echo, red-next, and yellow as the strongest. You can change the colors by adjusting the Colorline. You can change the way the echo strength is displayed by adjusting the sensitivity. If you have any questions on the above I will provide the best answers I can. After that I will make some more posts on why we all struggle with interpreting bottom content since it is very important for fish location. I have been struggling with what the bottom is made of since I figured out fish prefer different bottoms at different times of the year. I have used heavy sinkers for years to try and confirm the sonar and now I use my Aqua-Vu. What I have learned is that it is more difficult than I imagined.
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| Wonder if someone has a screen shot of this particular type of structure taken with the side imaging of the birds'? Would really shake up understanding the differences between the 2 products! |
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| I'm wondering how this is suppose to EDUCATE the average angler VS confuse them? I appreciated the explanation. But I thought the point of this whole promotion is to educate vs "trick" them. |
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| Seems pretty clear to me. On one hand you have a sonar chart-- what is the structure or object in question? On the other hand, you have an underwater video clip from an Aqua-Vu-- this shows us the "reality" of what sonar was trying to depict. In this case, it was the edge of a mud flat.
Think the point was to force us to put our thinking caps on. To make us realize that we don't really know what sonar is showing us until we see it with an underwater camera. Guess I thought this was pretty cool, and I'm looking forward to the next one.
Thanks for posting this, Doc.
Edited by Binkelman 2/25/2008 9:22 AM
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| Most would associate a mud "flat" with being a flat piece of sturcture. Not a mud hump and call it a "flat". I understand that what you see on the sonar is not what you see on the bottom all the time. |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | IMHO, an 8 foot high pile of rock in the middle of an otherwise flat, muddy areas is a reef, not part of the mud flat.
Had the question been posed, where is the boat at the instant the photo was taken, I would agree with the "mud" answer. All some of us are trying to say is that the question appeared to be about the 8' rock/hard bump that was surrounded by a much softer bottom.
Don't get me wrong - this is a great idea. I'm being a little critical because Jerry won and I didn't.... |
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| IT'S A TIMBER CRIB MADE BY THE D.N.R TO ATRACT BAIT FISH ON CASS LAKE, MN. |
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| The recording was done by driving from the bottom of soft mud (Lake Bottom) and going over the “mud flat” and driving off the other side on to the soft mud at the bottom. Mille Lacs mud flats are very hard. It was unfair if you have never been on Mille Lacs but it makes for an interesting topic. These structures are not common except at Mille Lacs. Hard and soft bottom is easy to differentiate when both are on the screen. However if there is no change it is very difficult. This screen capture doesn’t show much difference in the bottom since I am moving slowly on the bow mount using the Aqua-vu. The difference from soft to hard is very slight on the sonar but obvious on the underwater video. It is just plain difficult.
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| Binkelman nailed it. |
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| In one of your post you mentioned you were went across the hump at 5 mph. Was this with the aqua view also or did you have to go over it slower with the camera to get that good of a film clip? The reason I ask is one of my biggest complaints about using the camrea is the time it takes out of a fishing day. I have mine mounted on the gunnel of my Lund with a ram mount just to the right of my dash so I can see my Lowrance and the aqua view at the same time. Do you have any tricks to try and keep the lens and cord vertical at those depths. It seems I can only barely creep along with mine to keep it from angleing back at 45 degrees. Your video clip shows what seems like a very vertical angle with the lens.
Thanks |
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Location: Berlin | I don't know guys, I really liked this. The fact that it was MUD made it really interesting. I have never heard of that before. I pride myself on knowing my electronics inside and out and I would have swore that was rocks or sand, maybe even clay. The fact that it is mud amazes me and I thank Doc for showing us this. I do think the competition was a bit unfair since I have never fished the lake but the main point here was to learn, not to win a Aqua View. I feel very satisfied.
One question for Doc and others that are familiar with this type of mud, could this be silted over rocks or sand? I guess being so deep there is no way to tell but I would love to shove a rod down there to find out.
I am ready for the next one, bring it on. As for Jerry, you never stop impressing me:) |
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| "CW-deep-transition-web.jpg" I'd called those rocks. If that's the same spot then it would be a reef...not a flat?
I'm starting to think it's more a play on words than it is of content? |
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| I'm not trying to be critical of Doc, or the contest, but it is was a bit confusing. I can see from the video that the hump may indeed be hard mud. I certainly wouldn't call those a mud flat, but that is maybe just my lack of exposure to MN lingo. Also, it certainly is not the same as in the last still pic just above. If it was explained that where the boat is on the sonar, then I would definatley have said that was a mud flat. The fact that ML has both hard and soft mud, and the hard mud flat raises up 8 feet from the soft mud surrounding it, should have been required in any answer given.
I'm not begrudging jerry of a free camera, but was his answer just a guess? And were you just looking for a guess, or an real answer with an explanation? If this was just a win a camera contest, then guesses without reason would be OK. But if this is indeed supposed to be a teaching/learning/reward experience, then I would say that an explanation of how jerry came up with Mille Lacs Mud Flat would be required.
I have a great deal of respect for Doc and his knoweledge of high tech electronics and their application. I learn from him everytime he answers questions, and I did learn from this. So, this is not sour grapes. I'm just expressing my feelings on how to improve this learning opportunity on here. And I'd like it not to turn out to be a bunch of WAGs cluttering the page. See what I mean?
Rich, you're going to have to get longer probes!
Edited by Shep 2/25/2008 1:00 PM
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| I think the point is that the "mud flats" on Mille Lacs are more that just mud. If you've fished a Mille Lacs mud flat before, given the clues, the depth of water, and knowing where Doc has spent alot of time, it would have been pretty easy to guess Mud Flat on Mille Lacs. Seconds after the post went up I called Steve W and told him I thought it was Fellegy's needle, a part of a mud flat on Mille Lacs, given the clues. Seeing the sonar imagery vs the video was incredibly cool and I learned a ton just from that single example. Looking forward to more. |
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| Absolutely looking forward to more. But let's avoid the WAGs, and have some reason behind the answers. That's all I'm saying. Maybe kinda like the Riddler does his scavenge hunt? Lead us all through a series of clues and questions, about a sonar image or log.
Is there a way yu can attach a sonar log to a post? Then we could use that log on the Sonar Log Viewer to play it back and analyze? That would be cool.
Zach. I'll send you a file to test.
Edited by Shep 2/25/2008 1:33 PM
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | LOL......Brad.......It just goes to show, everyone hates a winner...:) |
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| That's not true, Jerry.....you're one of my favorite weiners! |
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| Jim M. The sonar recording was done at a different speed on the “mud flat”. The last sonar recording with the 2 underwater photos was done simultaneously. I have to go slow with the Aqua-Vu because of the drag. I use the Aqua-Vu to examine something and then pull it up if I am in a hurry. I will use the camera while I fish at times. If you find something interesting on the sonar, I throw a buoy so I know exactly where I want the camera.
Rich S. I have not studied all the flats (way too many) but I have seen small rocks on some so some could be covered with silt. Maybe somebody who ice fishes the “mud flats” and uses a camera will pipe in.
Jayman The CW deep transition sonar and camera shots are from a completely different lake and is rock hump with a transition to the lake basin. I used it as an example to show how hard it is to tell bottom content. I didn’t explain this well enough when I posted it. I recorded the sonar and the Aqua-Vu at the same time as I drifted off the top. The sonar doesn’t show much difference but the Aqua-Vu shows a big difference.
It is hard to come up with a sonar chart to have you diagnose and still turn it into a teaching session. I am thinking! I have many sonar charts but my Aqua-Vu library is more limited.
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| Doc, maybe we need a definition of answers before doing another one. In otherwords what type of answer are you looking for? "mud flat" or Fellegys needle" or "a log laying on the edge of a reef"? At what point are we looking at on the screen?
I would call that a mud hump out in a mud flat after seeing the video! and is it very specific to a particular lake or region of the country? How is this type of structure created? How do you know the density and the depth of that density compared to the surrounding "mud flat" when looking at a Lowrance? This comming from a bird user of course. |
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