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Message Subject: mercury union vote | |||
Guest![]() |
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I don't want to get into a bash fest here, however I can't sit back and allow untrue statements to be told. I happen to be close to the Kimberly mill closing. The union had very little to do with it. The major factor was that they are a non-integrated mill, meaning they must purchase pulp and power. Very few non integrated mills can make it nowadays unless they are producing a specialty product. Oh and the comment that it doesn't cost mills to heat the plant is ridiculous. Our steam demand is at minimum 33% higher in the winter months. Cold weater not only necessitates building heat, but process heating as well. The Kimberly mill had good assets, and good people, but the high costs of pulp and power caused their demise. | |||
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Guest![]() |
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RE: mercury union vote Off topic again guys,al this is the Mercury Thread | |||
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Dave![]() |
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Listening to you people makes me laugh. Do you not realize that it is not "Mercury" making this decision it is Brunswick do you think Brunswick cares about Fond du Lac. Wake up people they are a corporation and they "Brunswick" is going to move to which ever location is more feasible to them. And for our great Governer Doyle the union asked him to come to their talks and they recieved no answer from him. Way to back the union Doyle. ![]() | |||
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RNT![]() |
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Guest - 8/20/2009 5:43 PM I don't want to get into a bash fest here, however I can't sit back and allow untrue statements to be told. I happen to be close to the Kimberly mill closing. The union had very little to do with it. The major factor was that they are a non-integrated mill, meaning they must purchase pulp and power. Very few non integrated mills can make it nowadays unless they are producing a specialty product. Oh and the comment that it doesn't cost mills to heat the plant is ridiculous. Our steam demand is at minimum 33% higher in the winter months. Cold weater not only necessitates building heat, but process heating as well. The Kimberly mill had good assets, and good people, but the high costs of pulp and power caused their demise. New Page went to the union and told them they cannot keep the mill open under the current contract...yes because of prices. The union refused to help via their contract so mill closed. If the union would have conceded things in the contract, as many other mills have, they would still be working. As for heat, 80% of paper mills rely on the steam for heat. In fact since the 1980's many mills temp. went much higher after the asbestos insulation was removed and replaced with fiberglass which does not insulate as well. The steam demand being 33% higher is much different than saying energy cost for that steam goes up 33%. The cost of operation to produce 33% more steam is negligible. Merc has a union that is saying if they don't get what they want then Merc can leave. How else is that supposed to be taken? | |||
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Brad B![]() |
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Member Posts: 617 Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | "The steam demand being 33% higher is much different than saying energy cost for that steam goes up 33%. The cost of operation to produce 33% more steam is negligible. " How much easier can we spoon feed this to you and you STILL not get it? 33% more steam = 33% more steam has to be produced = 33% more spent on producing steam. Do you have ANY idea how much it cost to produce steam? Look it up.... Union labor may be a PART of the reason for plant closures, but it won't be the ONLY reason if Mercury closes and it WASN'T for any paper mill in the area either... | ||
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non-union![]() |
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Sure it's the unions fault. It always the unions fault with some people. Just because they're a union. Some people are spiteful and jealous and will never change their tune. Without any facts, they expect the union to always accept whats offered to them with no resistance or they're labeled the bad guys and the reason for everything economically wrong. Again, with no facts to back it up. All while they sit behind their keyboard as critics, enjoying their pension, a lifetime of great wages, and a Yamaha hanging off their boat. Pathetic! All this criticism and nobody even knows what was offered to them. | |||
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RNT![]() |
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Brad B - 8/20/2009 6:59 PM "The steam demand being 33% higher is much different than saying energy cost for that steam goes up 33%. The cost of operation to produce 33% more steam is negligible. " How much easier can we spoon feed this to you and you STILL not get it? 33% more steam = 33% more steam has to be produced = 33% more spent on producing steam. Do you have ANY idea how much it cost to produce steam? Look it up.... Union labor may be a PART of the reason for plant closures, but it won't be the ONLY reason if Mercury closes and it WASN'T for any paper mill in the area either... Brad I'm not going to argue, you are not correct on this. If you want to be correct then at least research the dynamics and functions of a boiler system. Out putting 33% more steam does not equate to a 33% cost increase to produce that steam, it is far from it. Do you need me to PDF you the procedures and operation of boilers? What is needed to boil water and then to maintain that evaporation rate under pressure compared to water input? Hell, can you even tell me the ave. temp. drop of the steam when it hits the machine compared to when it exits the boiler? Mercury is stating a fact that if the union does not give on parts that they will move down south to stay alive so yes...the union is the deciding factor if Merc. will stay or close. You can't read it any other way. "All this criticism and nobody even knows what was offered to them" Yes we do, it has been televised and the union is not keeping mute about it. It includes a pay freeze for new hires along with a very small pay increase for others, but the part the union is really upset about is Mercury will not promise to never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever leave Fond du Lac. They want a promise that no matter how bad Merc. looses money they will never leave. This stuff is not hidden, it is facts but not the soothing facts you are looking for. Unions are loosing ground and membership at an alarming rate. There are many, many places the workers vote not to unionize and it is things like what is going on that is making their minds up. And if pointing out where unions are making huge blunders, and in return loosing their jobs, is going to be called anti-union then the unions are doomed at best. I hope Merc. stays but it is looking doubtful | |||
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RNT![]() |
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Just to spoon feed you Brad; If the pressure of the steam was @ 470 and you needed 33% more you would increase the pressure to 625. You would only need to raise the temp. of the vapor 22.5 degrees to accomplish this, it would go from 400.8 to 423.3...a far cry from a 33% increase. | |||
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RNT![]() |
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Sorry, wrong numbers. It would require a 40.7 degree increase from 448.1 to 488.8...a 9% increase. | |||
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Brad B![]() |
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Member Posts: 617 Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Enough already. If you must continue to "not argue", send it via the messenger. | ||
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RNT![]() |
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Sorry, can't let a comment like "spoon feeding me" slip by when your facts were wrong. Well Merc's final offer is a pay freeze on current workers and a 30% reduction in pay for new hires. Sounds like the union will vote it down on Sunday. The CEO said if it not taken they will start re-locating jobs. Doesn't look good. | |||
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Sunshine![]() |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | The Milwaukee Journal HEADLINES for August 21st
Mercury Marine threatens to leave if union vote fails1,900 Fox Valley jobs at stake as move to Oklahoma is consideredBy Rick Barrett of the Journal Sentinel Posted: Aug. 20, 2009 Recent Coverage Fond du Lac — The fate of hundreds of Mercury Marine Inc. manufacturing jobs will be decided in a union vote Sunday, and the outcome also may determine whether the 70-year-old company keeps its world headquarters in Fond du Lac. Mercury, one of the Fox Valley's largest employers, said Thursday that it will probably move its outboard engine manufacturing to Stillwater, Okla., unless its Fond du Lac union votes to accept contract concessions. Those concessions include a seven-year wage freeze and about 30% lower pay for new hires and employees called back to work from layoff. Mercury, which has a workforce of 1,900 employees in Fond du Lac, also said it would be unlikely to keep its world headquarters in Fond du Lac if the manufacturing goes to Stillwater, where the company has operated a factory for 30 years. Mercury will probably want to have its headquarters where the manufacturing is based, President Mark Schwabero said in an afternoon news conference at the Holiday Inn. "There won't be a job for them" if the concessions aren't approved, Schwabero said. Pulling out of Fond du Lac would cost Mercury, a division of Brunswick Corp., millions of dollars. Oklahoma state and local officials have offered to cover the costs in return for the jobs and taxes that the state would receive from the deal. Likewise, Wisconsin has offered to cover the costs of moving work from Mercury's plant in Stillwater to Fond du Lac, possibly doubling the company's manufacturing employment here over the next seven years. "We are comfortable no matter which way this goes," Schwabero said of the vote. "Our intention is to have a decision by the end of the summer for everything," including the company headquarters. Union disgustedUnion leaders say they're disgusted by what they see as an all-or-nothing offer that could preserve jobs here now but is hard on the workforce and doesn't include long-term job guarantees. "I can tell you that no one on the bargaining committee is going to vote for this," said Mark Zillges, president of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Lodge 1947, which represents Mercury's 838 factory workers in Fond du Lac. The union might file an unfair labor negotiation grievance against the company, Zillges said Thursday. He predicted that there will be layoffs regardless of the outcome of the vote. Mercury has given many reasons why it must reduce its manufacturing costs and why Oklahoma might be a better place to make its engines. The global marine product market is less than half of what it was just a few years ago, according to the company, which is closely tied to Brunswick's recreational boat division. Since 2007, Brunswick has closed half its North American boat manufacturing plants to reduce its capacity amid a deep sales slump. Workforce cut in halfBrunswick's marine workforce, which makes boats and engines, has been reduced by more than half. Some of the company's largest competitors have filed for bankruptcy and also have made drastic cuts in their manufacturing operations. This isn't a normal economic downturn for the boating industry. Nearly 75% of the jobs have been lost in the last two years, totaling more than 135,000 employees, according to Brunswick. The company says the demand for marine products in the United States has dropped to its lowest level in more than 40 years. Mercury must cut costs and consolidate operations, according to Schwabero. The Stillwater plant already has many of the advantages that company officials are seeking in Fond du Lac, such as lower wages for new hires and more flexible work rules. The Stillwater facility, which employs 376 people, is large enough to accommodate work now done in Fond du Lac. Mercury is trying to influence people with half truths and statements not included in the written offer, according to Zillges. "I think for spite they want to move some jobs to Oklahoma," he said. Crucial voteBoth company and union officials have ratcheted up their efforts to sway Sunday's vote, which the company says is pivotal to its future. The loss of Mercury in Fond du Lac could drive the area's unemployment rate to 13%, similar to what happened after General Motors closed its SUV assembly plant in Janesville. Schwabero said the decision will rest on his shoulders, contingent on Brunswick's approval. Mercury has employees in Fond du Lac and Stillwater who have worked decades for the company and whose jobs are at stake. "It's not that any of them have done something wrong. This is about the reality of business conditions," Schwabero said.
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thumper![]() |
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Member Posts: 744 | non-union - 8/20/2009 5:40 PM And at one point, wasn't a Merc made almost completely in the USA? Sure, you can say the current microcosm of the situation isn't because of that. The problem with the big picture is though and rooted back when people started selling out their neighbors and country for cheap Japanese motors and let them get a foothold in the market. As their market share increased, Merc had to start sending work and parts overseas until we find ourselves where we are today. Hard to compete with wages measured in cents per hour. People buying Japanese motors IS the problem! If people don't buy them, there is no issue here to discuss. Incorrect. My union served McBreakfast was hot, but it took 4 guys to make it and cost me $84.78 | ||
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Rich S![]() |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | He is also getting the Japanese and Chinese mixed up and there is a BIG difference. | ||
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Sunshine![]() |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | I'm old enough to remember when we (US) were the bad guys with Europe because WE were making quality products cheaper. During the 50's and 60's we were the ones taking jobs away from European companies. At that point we said too bad, too sad. What goes around comes around in a global economy. In this day in age, to blame people because they buy products from other countries is ludicrous. It's also short sighted to think that this is only happening to us. Things are bad all over, both in the states and globally. If there is a silver lining in all of this, the rest of world does not want to see us fail because we are all in this together. If the US collapsed may other countries would follow. Like it or not we are in a global economy where everyone buys products from each other in the free market system. There is no turning back. It does no good to keep screaming buy American. We need to continue to find ways (the old American ingenuity) to compete with the rest of the world. Nationally, many are saying that the STEM fields are our salvation. For now, we are the best creative thinkers out there. Our country has better creativity and problem solving skills than others. We need to capitalize on this. Paying someone $70,000 to watch parts move down and assembly line may not work any more. The union model may be outdated. Trying to convert back to protectionism politics is a short term solution. Building it better, smarter, and cheaper is a model that worked for the US in the past and will work now in this global economy. | ||
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Shep![]() |
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Member Posts: 3899 | "Likewise, Wisconsin has offered to cover the costs of moving work from Mercury's plant in Stillwater to Fond du Lac, possibly doubling the company's manufacturing employment here over the next seven years." Now that's what I was looking for. Who, from the State Gov't actually said this? Viking, I understand the Global aspect of our new economy. What I am arguing is the NATIONAL aspect. Our State is not friendly to manufacturing, plain and simple. Hasn't been for a long time, long before you got here from Queensland. I think the State could/should be in the negotiation now, and be offering Merc incentives to stay in Fond du Lac. The costs of moving jobs from Stillwater is a drop in the bucket compared to what the State will lose if Merc moves to Stillwater. As for your RW Talk Radio comment. I don't listen to any talk radio. When I want to be entertained, I listen to Sports Talk, or come here and listen to how great MN is. Now that's entertainment! Dennis, I agree with alot of what you said, but I don't think our manufacturing prowess was the reason we were looked at as the bad guy, globally. I think it was more our attitude towards the rest of the world. | ||
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TJM![]() |
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Over the last year these companies that are making recreational products are being told by upper management & CEO'S to take drastic steps to reduce all overhead and cost to produce their products. So with Mercury sales slumping and economist call for a slow recovery in the economy. The union employees will not get what they want in the new contract. SO WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ? TJM | |||
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Rich S![]() |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | I think there is a lot of info we do not know about. If faced with the decision between keeping your job at a lower pay/lower benefit or loosing it completely in this economy I can't see anyone letting them move to OK. Maybe Merc is trying to call their bluff or vise/versa but I just feel like we don't have nearly all the facts they do. It is a tough place to be for both sides and I hope it works out. | ||
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Sunshine![]() |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | TJM: I believe that they DO understand BUT taking a pay freeze for 7 years is very very difficult for any one of us to shallow. They will all be asking themselves the tough question when they vote. Am I better without my current job or am I better with receiving no pay increases for the next 7 years. Unfortunately many union official minds always think of this type of hard ball tactic as a big bluff and they try to convince union membership to call them on it. I'm still hoping for the "state" to get involved with midnight negotiations. Shep, When we returned from world war II we had very cheaper labor, new factories and we thought that our natural resources were limitless. We needed to provide jobs for returning war heroes and the female population that stepped forward during the war. Our factories were not destroyed or damaged during the war and the war put us in a full speed ahead manufacturing attitude. Combine this with our ability/want to provide goods to the rest of the world. I keenly remember having discussion with my dad and asking him why Europe hates us so much (in the 60's). They had aging factories or were rebuilding from the war and their employees were being paid way more than ours. Their costs were a lot greater than ours. At least this is what I remember from that period and I believe that the history books will confirm it. Back to 2009. Have any of you ever seen "Did Ya' Know" http://www.flixxy.com/technology-and-education-2008.htm This is a great You Tube video that describes the world we live in today and what we are up against.
Edited comment: Rich, you and I must have been typing at the same time and we have mutual feelings. Sorry for the repeat of some thoughts. Edited by Sunshine 8/21/2009 9:18 AM | ||
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bradley894![]() |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | TJM is correct. The employee's of Merc in both locations have no leverage in this fight! The Union is not acting in the best interest of themselves living to fight another day or looking out for there members in this case. If merc and other recreational sales are down to below half of what demand was 3 years ago then servival is at stake. remember that this is a corperation and stockholders demand a return on investment! with an estimated 5000 jobs in the Fondy aria dependant on merc marine this is a big big deal! also a big deal at the 30 year old plant in stillwater. ( you can bet the state of Oaklahoma is involved in this bidding war also.) The end result is another U.S. Plant closing added to what seems to be hundreads and hundreads a month when counting the smaller shops in the united states. The Union must step back and take the deal or just desolve and let the employee's who want to keep there jobs make that call on there own. OR ITS OVER and everyone is on the street! WHO IS TO BLAMB? UNION nope , MERC NOPE, it comes down to the noumbers sales is less than half of 3 years ago! SALES at the Lowest level in 40 YEARS! its not the china or japan or the fault of the folks who have a brand other than Merc on there boat! IM TIRED OF SIDETRACKING THE REAL PROBLEM! Why a drop in demand from a couple years ago? Answer economy, ya but why? simple! Cost of energy! there has been nothing but an anti growth movement in the united states energy policy for the last 15 years. No new power plants , or oil refinaries built in like 20 years. No new wells dug no new nuke plants NOTHIng but windmills and attacks on our available energy. Taxes on fuel and massive mandates to companies like merc to produce cleaner motors at an unrealistic pace. i can buy entire car for less then what many spend on a new outboard alone! Also WaKE UP! what happend two years ago? Fuel costs went to a place where many couldnt afford to do any recreational boating! 3 or 4 bucks a gallon massive tax increases and fees are taking disposable income used for fishing, hunting and other recreational activities away from consumers. take a couple hundy out of the pockets of the people in this country and thats taking away the two hundread that they could have made a boat payment with or fill the tank buy ice , sandwiches and launch fee. ITs oUR own fAULT! We let our Goverment and its EnergY Policy along with there wastfull spending take our economy down! We were too busy recreating and working to give a shi+. Now we are all screwed! and only half way to the bottom out point! with governemnt spending as of late inflation over the next two years will rise im guessing low at 7% total! Do you have any idia what that alone means to your pay check? Since your take home is about 50% of your gross after all fee's taxes and so forth are paid you are looking at a 14% loss of TAKE HOME INCOME! MERC Employee's Make the deal work and stay working until you can find another employer to offer you a better opportunity but until then ....The House payment must be made or you will be living in a two bedroom apartment complex with two parking stalls in the lot and telling yourself its not so bad they call it a condo! THINK ABOUT IT! Think about where this country is headed! THINK HARD AND MAKE YOUR DECISION~! | ||
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Sunshine![]() |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | More news.......
Mercury urges union to vote yesMercury Marine executives held a press conference Thursday afternoon to outline the details of its contract proposal for employees in Fond du Lac, Wis., and express the urgency that union members approve the new contract when it comes to a vote Sunday."Without changes to the [existing] contract, the cost structure in Fond du Lac would not be competitive," company president Mark Schwabero said. "Our decision would be to, over time, start moving jobs out of Fond du Lac to other locations. "A yes vote says, at a minimum, we will keep the jobs that are here, here," he added. Schwabero said a no vote does not necessarily mean the end of all operations in Fond du Lac, which serves as the engine builder's world headquarters. There are about 1,900 employees in Wisconsin - 838 of them are union, mostly manufacturing, and the rest are involved in engineering, IT, marketing and parts. "That's all separate," he says. Mercury is restructuring its business to emerge from the economic downturn as a stronger company in a different and much smaller market, Schwabero explained. One possible outcome is the consolidation of operations in either Fond du Lac, Wis., or Stillwater, Okla. Representatives of the company and the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Lodge 1947 have met during the last two weeks to negotiate needed changes to the existing four-year contract that was approved last year. Union members will vote at 9 a.m. Sunday on changes to their contract proposed by the company. Union leaders did not agree to the concessions at the conclusion of negotiations earlier this week. Chief union negotiator Dan Longsine told the Fond du Lac Reporter newspaper he's telling members to "vote their own conscience." He said the situation scares people, including him, when considering the potential consequences.
Mark Zillges, president of Local 1947, told the newspaper he will be voting against the proposals. What bothers him most is a provision that calls for bringing recalled employees back at a lower wage. "I told 'em I'll stand with them," Zillges said about the laid-off workers. "I've had immediate family ask, 'What about us?' I say, 'What about them, too?' I'll have to suffer like the next guy. Why should I gain and they'll suffer?" Negotiations with union representatives in Fond du Lac have centered on a new seven-year contract that incorporates changes in wages, benefits and operational flexibility. Mercury had hoped to reach an agreement Monday with the union leadership, but talks broke down and union officials said they would take Mercury's offer to a membership vote Sunday. Mercury's offer calls for no changes to wages for existing employees through 2012, with possible increases in 2012. Recalled employees and newly hired employees will receive a lower wage scale than current workers, but above average for similar jobs in the region, according Schwabero. The company is also offering cash incentives for early retirement or employees who may have opportunities elsewhere. Operational flexibility relates to such issues as overtime. Currently, overtime is on a purely voluntary basis. Under the new contract, the company would be able to schedule overtime on a non-voluntary basis, with certain limitations with respect to holidays, the number of hours per month and the number of weekends per year. Schwabero says this would give Mercury the agility and responsiveness it needs to produce more products on demand. Even when the recession ends, he expects dealers and boatbuilders won't be stocking up on engines as they have in the past. "We think agility and responsiveness are going to be critical on a going-forward basis," he said. — Melanie Winters
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stacker![]() |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I spent more years growing up in michigan than I have in wisconsin, but I can say this. I would like to know what the pay rate and all the bennys are for there employess. I am all for people making good money, but some times there is a line in the sand that is so far behind the unions that they passed it in good times and forgot what that line was there for. Meaning, when my grandparents stood watch on malbo irons pickets lines to get the unions into GM it was because my grandpa was dying from black lung and still had to catch and kill stuff to feed the family. Today most are fighting to keep there winnebago lake homes and hunting land up north. My grandpa drew the line in the sand the way most of yours did a long time ago and said we need better working conditions and enough money to live on. Greed came into play and the line has been passed by miles. Again, just scrapping by wages is not what we ask for, but get real...... I would bet that the truth be told, 858 jobs could be filled in 1 week by giving new hire guys 2/3rds of what these guys are making and a good profit sharing 401K plan. The union is hard nosed, because they want to keep there 120 acres of hunting land. I can tell you this from my life, YOU DO NOT WANT THIS TO HAPPEN!! period. Edited by stacker 8/21/2009 10:11 AM | ||
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bradley894![]() |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | i guess my entire rant sums up to one point! This is happening all over the country and people better wake up! Take a look at your 4 bedroom home and 4 car garage and be thankfull you have it! being able to spend 500 dollars on a weekend of boating or other family fun may become a thing of the past but be thankfull you can open the door on your shed and chip in for a couple cases of beer and Johnsonvilles and envite the neibors. look forward to building a white picked fence around your vegitable guardin as a nice pass time and using old Merc crates you got for a buck a piece so you dont hafta buy lumber. look forward to building it and keeping those bunnies out. THINK HARD ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THE NEXT TEN YEARS WILL BRING! THINK ABOUT IT TONIGHT! look at your wife and kids and think about what means something more to you than that Harly Davidson in the driveway and the next 500 dollar road cruze your going on with your buddies. Merc and all employee's buy into the turnaround you are prommised on the news all you want , be in denial all you want but we all know the direction we are headed! Yet the school will be added onto using a property tax increase with fewer studants enrolled than 3 additions ago. if you dont smell what we are standing in you better take a min and sniff around. Merc employee's Take the deal! too many households are at stake here. Older merc employee's who are hanging on for 3 years yet to retire need to shut up! Others cant afford to suck unemployment for 3 years before there retirement kicks in!
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Jim Ordway![]() |
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Member Posts: 538 | Unless I am missing something, I do not see where the workers have any power in this situation. If I had a family to feed I would take what I could get to keep my job. Any job is a good job in this uncertain economy. It is always easier to look for a new and better paying job while you are working and paying the bills that the other way around. It is tough to accept changing a contract that you thought was a done deal and having something else forced upon you. This is a very tough thing for anyone to swallow and my heart goes out to these folks. Take care, Jim O | ||
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RNT![]() |
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What Merc is asking is not out of line on what other mills have asked and unions accepted. Brillion Iron put a pay freeze, did some lay-offs. My brother-in-law was laid off but the company re-structured a bit of the mill and are now starting to call people back. He is not going back to his $28/hr old job but is in a new $17/hr job...beats un-employment. Great Northern is another example except they offered the union a 1% pay increase. They are not guaranteed a full 40 hrs...it varies...but again better than no job. When things are booming is the time to ask for more but don't make those demands in a big slump like right now. As a side not, Avery-Dennison has had enough people leave to take Oshkosh Truck jobs that they may be looking to fill two positions soon. | |||
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