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| oxy-moron - 6/4/2010 1:20 PM For all the bragging that has gone on in the past where tournament fishermen are better at fishing than the average joe, if teams are here to stay then they obviously are not better than anyone else since help is needed from others to find and catch the fish. A good team can make anyone better. Decisions are based on information. The more information you have, the better decisions you can make. A team gives you more information than you can gather by yourself. That's all there is too it. |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Well said thumper!! |
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| Denny.......Ahhhhhhh.....Yup. Probably the best "Team" model to follow for marketing product!
Good Luck
Tyee |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Tyee hits on my point. There are no mid level pro/am circuits left. If you want to work your way up to fishing MWC events, then team tourneys are great. While you certainly can create contacts in team events, the truth of the matter is that there is no longer a place for aspiring pros to start fishing pro type format.
The FLW Walleye League was far from perfect, but it did give folks who wanted to move up an opportunity to test themselves on a smaller scale while providing the pro/am feel. Expecting new anglers to jump in head first, even for the FLW $750 is unrealistic. The $1500 for an AIM event is an even harder pill to swallow. How many people do you know that fish their first major event as a pro on the FLW Tour or AIM?
Nascar has jr. levels and has a cult following all the way down to the local dirt tracks. I do not expect the same thing for competitive Walleye fishing, but we need more options. I think the FLW missed the boat when they cut the league in this economy. I feel there are a lot of us that would’ve loved to fish events for $200-$250 per event even though the payouts wouldn’t be huge. The risk wouldn’t have been that huge either.
To me the teams are just another part of the equation. I understand why people do it, and I’m not against it. I am however against the negative impact it’s having. Look at the comments on this thread. Some people feel that it puts them at enough of a disadvantage that they won’t get into events. Some feel that they have to give too much to get in them. Some feel that they discredit the individual anglers talent.
I don’t think they discredit talent or dedication, but can see how an outsider may think that. I’m looking at this from a growth perspective (or currently just to sustain). We need to find ways to keep new blood coming in and keep the current players. Unfortunately those two types usually want different things. A lot of seasoned pros want higher entries for higher payouts (and I don’t blame them), while inexperienced new anglers want to experience tournaments without a second mortgage (also a valid point). Times are tough and pricing new blood out of the scene isn’t going to help.
I like the current tours, but we need something one step down and it’s not out there. Until that happens again, I don’t see the numbers getting any better. Somebody who does well at that level will build the confidence/contacts etc… to move up. |
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| "A good team can make anyone better. Decisions are based on information. The more information you have, the better decisions you can make. A team gives you more information than you can gather by yourself. That's all there is too it."
How much information does one fisherman need? With all the advancements in the industry and new gadgets coming out every year the pro boat is looking more like Darth Vader’s bathroom (Knight Rider Quote) Next will be satellite reconnaissance on fish locations during the event.
Taking an individual’s sport and turning it into a faux team sport may be the direction things are going but it necessarily is not a good thing.
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | "Next will be satellite reconnaissance on fish locations during the event. "
We have that to an extent with radar. "I know where you are" |
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| "Tyee hits on my point. There are no mid level pro/am circuits left."....GNWC, There never were any! at least in the format that we are discussing here, the teams everyone is used to is more of a buddy buddy system and a don't ask don't tell program, Just to clarify! the "team" I think we are discussing here is the model being adapted within AIM where an angler still fishes with a co-angler and not a "teammate". Or have I missed something?
Good Luck
Tyee |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I also think That anyone who is even thinking of fishing a flw or aim event probably has fished 100 or more events allready. This is not a starting point, this is the finishing point. Anyone who is going to play at that level is VERY confident in there skills. If they are WORRYing about teams then they are not ready to play at that level. Not everyone will be ready to play at that level. I have said it for a long time, it goes like this...."Nope, not going to slow down so you can run with me, why dont you try to keep up to my pace." |
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| The concept of "teams" where multiple boats are sharing information before and during the event does not kick the skill level up a notch for the individual and the event, it brings it down. Forming true sanctioned teams is one thing, having individual boats forming their own non-sanctioned "teams" and sharing verbal, electronic or written information during an event, is another and a practice like that is banned in every sport professional and amateur. |
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Location: Rhinelander | The teams I'm talking about work together through the season. They travel, obtain lodging, prefish, and otherwise work together sharing expenses and income. |
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| sworrall - 6/5/2010 1:10 PM
The teams I'm talking about work together through the season. They travel, obtain lodging, prefish, and otherwise work together sharing expenses and income.
For the most part those mentioned are fine but the original post mentioned knowledge and tournament time help...those are not ethical. If you can travel, lodge and prefish together without it interfering in any way with the tournament results including blunt advise and direct information on fish locations, presentation and other factors then by all means go for it to save expense money. But if that information is being exchanged between the "team" for the purpose of the participation in the tournament then no. |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'But if that information is being exchanged between the "team" for the purpose of the participation in the tournament then no.'
It is, and it has been. Why the 'no' answer? Please expand on your opinion. |
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| That was me.
The no answer is for several reasons. First it is not ethical and that is why it is forbidden in other sports. If it were actual sanctioned team mates and the sport was formed and played around an actual team setting that involved multiple boats that is one thing, but what is going on is more like an alliance between friends and no matter how you manipulate the view it does affect the tournament and outcome.
You cannot have a sport that is presented to be played and won on an individual-Pro/Am one boat basis and turn around and allow a shadow team effort going on in the background...not if you want any credibility. If these "teams" are the wave of the future then adjust the entire sport and form it around a true team model, not a faux one. It is either a team sport or an individual-Pro/Am one boat one...you can't have a mix and just because it has been going on for a while only means the people who should have stopped it dropped the ball.
The entire sport is presented to the public as an individual-Pro/Am one boat sport. If the way the "teams" are allowed to form is tolerated by the industry then present it to the public that way...the support from them may not be what one thinks.
When the winner steps on stage have them say "Thank you Bob for telling me where the fish were, and thank you Tom for telling me the correct presentation I should use, and thanks to Jim for informing me what color lure they are biting on, and thank you Scott..."
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| As for a sponsor stand point why would businesses want to continue to sponsor when the person receiving their money is supposed to promote the company, and the dollars the pro receives is to also help with the move up in the rankings thus creating more exposure for the sponsor...but that same pro is giving tips and information to a competitor that may help the other pro win the tournament and giving a competing sponsor more exposure? |
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| id like it to be a mono e mono world myself but its NOT! human nature dictates that teams will form. Wallyefishing tournament anglers do not make a living fishing tournaments and im sure if you take a 5 year buisness plan and open the books on even the greatest fisherman out there you will find over the 5 years you coulnt count on one hand the noumber of anglers that made there living fishing strictly tournaments or as a result of the tournament game. the success storys are of successful guids or fishing industry products that spin off from there love of the sport and take off with hard work and good marketing. the truth is that guys will form freindships and groups to share and plan for the tournament game they love. thy will lick each others wounds after a tuff day, they will feed off of each other and dream togather. Its a get away for 75% a dream for 20%( who havent figured it out yet) and for the remaining 10% it supports there fishing related industry source of income.
i know of many teams over the years. teams formed year after year for major tournaments , teams that fished the big cercuits and some fishing the small cercuits.
i think if you ran the noumbers on boats teaming up you will find that over time they do not offer any advantages other than social. cashing the big check is harder as a team. maybe a few more small checks (maybe) and maybe a small edge in a points race situation to qualify for a championship. a good topic to disguss but not a big deal. teams may discurrage some like GNrookie from fealing he can compete or participating. thats a shame. but it over all creates participation as those teams keep its members exited to fish the next event and often talk others into participating and joining them for the fun. call it a team to gain a competive advantage if you want but then explain why a 4 boat team after 3 to 5 days of pre fishing cant post one boat over 5 lbs on baggo. today in the mwc? All locals? advantage.. ya ok... oh and in this little batch of boats before you say ya ,,, whatever..... these boats consist of individual winners of the merc national , otter steet the fleet farm and mwc.... these few boats are solid on baggo all individualy and now when the work togather to figure out a system they all know so well they fall on there faces! i see no advantag. another solid 4 boat team on the bay for the last mws i think had one boat in it that cashed A SMALL CHECK! pre fished for days and if i listed the names you would say WA? just as a late entry of ten boats on friday night doesnt statisticlaly show any advantage come weigh in time. and results. all over rated arguments , just fish, adapt , fish , adapt , and wish for a little luck! you will be fine and have fun spending your money any way you want. as a team. with an hds10 or as a last min. entry,, doesnt mater to me ... just injoy yourself... your paying for it. |
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| again i go on a ramble above... translation, qualify for the cabella's championship, $$$$$?????? ?... spend 200 a day pre-fishing for a week
1000 $ pay entry to MWC event... why woulnt ya? 700$ bait expenses for a week 100.00 a week off of work ... 600$ wear and tear on boat and truck?
estimated total? 2500.00$ to chase the dream. getting a goose egg on the first day of the tournament? PRICELESS! hmmm? go out with your team and drown your sorrow? or spend hours on the phone with your wife and kids who you havent seen for a week? tuff choice... make the call and take your medicin then go out with your freinds for a sandwich and a beer and make a plan for the morning to catch the big fish of the tournment. teams are fine, you paid for what ever you want. |
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| If everyone wants teams then make it a team sport with rules governing the activity. You can't have unregulated activities within a sport such as teams and still consider calling it a sport. |
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Location: Rhinelander | Unregulated? The rules of each event are followed to a T. There are no rules against sharing expenses, income, information, as long as it's done within the existing framework. For the most part, it is. |
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| Yes unregulated. The Co-angler is forbidden on any information sharing immediately after the rules meeting but the Pro is not. I do not agree with the concept of the shadow team for information gathering and pre-fishing, never said anything about expense sharing and the issue others have is not with that part of it either. The rules are too lax in the entire pro fishing world with this.
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| all this talk of teams, ( it's funny) first of all! you don't pay for my entries or my expenses, ( by the way my expenes for bay mills was $3900.) until you pay my expenses shut up (if i use a team or not, it's not your concern) if you want to fish 100 dollar or 750 dollar tourneys that you choice, but you sure in the hell not telling me what im' doing or how i'm going to fish. i'm out there to win.. there only one place and thats first .... you problay want money down to 50 th place to, if you say yes you can't afford to fish, fishing tournaments major tourney is a rich mans sport, plain and simple, and i'm glad because it keeps the ripp rats from fishing, Butt i will still do what i'm doing, and if you come to tourny and talk to me , i will still sit down with you and a with cold beer , and talk to you about world issues. Life is great, JIM Pyle (tournament fishing since 1979 ) |
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| "until you pay my expenses shut up (if i use a team or not, it's not your concern)"
So asking fan, fishermen, sponsor opinions really means only fishermen |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'Yes unregulated. The Co-angler is forbidden on any information sharing immediately after the rules meeting but the Pro is not.'
That's an obvious difference, as the Co usually fishes with three different Pros during each event.
If Pros choose to tell each other what's happening out there and work together finding fish and establishing working patterns and techniques, I fail to see how that's a 'regulations' issue. There are no 'shadow teams' that I know of, only Pros working together openly, and all want to win or cash a check. How would you suggest regulating the situation, and how would you enforce those regulations on the water and off? |
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| thats right, why don't you ask me what kind of rules i can make for you?  |
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| sworrall - 6/6/2010 4:45 PM
'Yes unregulated. The Co-angler is forbidden on any information sharing immediately after the rules meeting but the Pro is not.'
That's an obvious difference, as the Co usually fishes with three different Pros during each event.
If Pros choose to tell each other what's happening out there and work together finding fish and establishing working patterns and techniques, I fail to see how that's a 'regulations' issue. There are no 'shadow teams' that I know of, only Pros working together openly, and all want to win or cash a check. How would you suggest regulating the situation, and how would you enforce those regulations on the water and off?
How would I suggest regulating the situation and enforce the regulations on the water and off...the same way the Co-anglers are regulated and enforced.
Shadow team is referring to the unsanctioned team effort that is going on. You don't have a three boat "Team Lund" all working together for the "Lund Team" to rise to the top in a multi boat team event...you have pro1, pro13 and pro22 scratching each others back in a sport that is supposed to be about individual skill and knowledge to win top prize.
Have all the talk you want about the lake, where the likely spots are that would be hot and anything else you want to a week before the event...but when you arrive in the area and you are fishing the up-coming event all information flow between Pros stops. Getting more information for your benefit is what pre-fishing is for. I don’t think the team effort is ethical in an individual sport.
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| lol: you got to be kidding me.. you can talk to every joe blow until your face is blue. you still have go and catch the fish simple as that. |
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