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| "A perfect example is last year at AIM's championship at Winnie, everyone knew where Todd Rielly was fishing and they respected him enough to give him and a few others the sopt. I was lucky enough to fish with someone from that group of anglers, and on the way out he told me flat out, there are three other boats on the same area that have been fishing there, sure enough, there were three other boats there, (this was on the last day) soon a couple of other boats tried to sneek in there, havn't been there all week, but came flying right up to the spot, and it didn't take long for that boat to move off, because they soon realized he was not making any friends.
Hummmm. So your third day experience gave you a perception based on the little bit you saw and what someone told you. Was your pro on Todds team? Do you know or did you see who was orig. fishing that location,7,6,5,4,3,2 days before the tournamnet started? did you see who the one and only boat was that was on that spot on day one, his catch on day 2 when the "other" boat showed up? When everyone else drove right past him to fish greener pasturers. You only saw what happened on day three as he was forced to stay away from the others that came in and took HIS spot!.......your perception may be true to a point but you do not have the WHOLE story..I wasn't there like you were JonnyV but know a version too. The only difference is in who you claim is the joker!
a whole set of team rules could be drafted to address Tailpiping, and I'll stand by my earlier statement that you won't get endemnic sponsors until you address all this with tighter stricter rules....all major sports grow because they adopt new rules EVERY year to squash unwanted behavior or safety concerns.
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 8/20/2010 2:54 PM
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| It would appear most of the individuals posting on this thread believe that "Tailpiping" is poor etiquette and a behavior that is frowned upon. On the other hand, fishing a tournament under the "Team Concept" is deemed as an acceptable practice. It would seem to me that the "Hey, if the circuit allows it then go for it" mentality is awfully flexible and convenient. Bottom line, a lot of ambiguity to those that are entertaining the notion of jumping into competitive fishing.
This is not directed towards anyone whatsoever, rather an observation of how tournaments are perceived. There are a lot of good people out there and anglers that are masterful at their craft. It is refreshing to witness so many people that have such a deep passion for a sport and truly desire the arena of tournament fishing to flourish. I as one concur that the more information put out there, the better chance this sport will have in gaining momentum. I applaud all of you for your insight and conviction. If my comments seem mordacious or off topic, it is simply a slip of the tongue and not of the heart. |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Jasper - 8/20/2010 3:01 PM It would appear most of the individuals posting on this thread believe that "Tailpiping" is poor etiquette and a behavior that is frowned upon. On the other hand, fishing a tournament under the "Team Concept" is deemed as an acceptable practice. It would seem to me that the "Hey, if the circuit allows it then go for it" mentality is awfully flexible and convenient. Bottom line, a lot of ambiguity to those that are entertaining the notion of jumping into competitive fishing. Jasper: I will not speak for the others but YES, I believe that the team concept is acceptable and that tailpipers in all forms are the scum of the earth lol The team concept was born out of necessity and survival. Let's face it, it is an expensive sport right now to play in. Sharing expenses and cash rewards came out of trying to stay in the game long enough to be rewarded later w/ sponsorship and acknowledgment. It is also near impossible to dissect a body of water like Green Bay without help from others. The idea of sharing the purse came from the notion that if you had more to gain with the success of everyone you would work harder for everyone's interest and keep nothing to yourself. I have experienced tailpipers while fun fishing, guiding and during tournaments. My personal opinion is that it is unethical. I can not imagine how anyone gets real satisfaction cashing a check by following another boat to a spot and seeing what they are doing. I as an individual would have a hard time looking in the mirror. But that is just me and one man's opinion. I believe that tailpiping is not addressed in rules because it is impossible to prove. One man's word against another. That is why I suggest the recording of waypoints prior to a competition. Is it a perfect answer, no. But it is the best I can come up with. Others will say that it will prevent them from scouting for fish during a tournament. again i say, everyone has the same opportunity to find fish prior to a tournament. And you can still search and find fish as long as there is not another tournament boat sitting on top of an area you would like to try.
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| Sunshine - 8/20/2010 3:29 PM
<The team concept was born out of necessity and survival. Let's face it, it is an expensive sport right now to play in. Sharing expenses and cash rewards came out of trying to stay in the game long enough to be rewarded later w/ sponsorship and acknowledgment. It is also near impossible to dissect a body of water like Green Bay without help from others. The idea of sharing the purse came from the notion that if you had more to gain with the success of everyone you would work harder for everyone's interest and keep nothing to yourself.</p><p>
This is where I disagree with you. I do not feel that the teams of today morphed into what they are because of necessity and survival. I feel greed has a huge part. I also think that there are some pro's that have quit the game totally because of the teams. In the past they talked but they hardly if ever worked with money and such. I know a group that started but it was fisty cuffs.
Tailpipers? I pre-fished 1/2 hour where you have been at for 2 days. I knew they were there but did not catch the size. Now I know they are there in size me and my "Mates" are coming. thats all 8 of us, STOP ME!! |
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Location: Badgerland | I know your all waiting to see where I come down on all this, but we "me , myself, and I" cant agree to conclude a formal posistion at this time. pleez stand by...  |
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| "Allow me to explain the protecting of spots: in my example, the two guys I was protecting the spot for were in 2nd and 4th place of a 4 day event. This happened on DAY 3. Other guys on the circuit followed them to their small isolated spot, trying to move in on their bite. I ran them off and cut them off. It was not a case of guys headed to a spot and someone saving the spot for them. There is a big difference between the two. I was proud of what I did for my partners and if I was fishing a tournament and had little going for me while my partners were doing very well I'd do it again......no question."
If I roll up on a spot innocently and find you doing that, well, someone is going home with a dented or sunken boat. And it won't be me!  |
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| Theres a cool special on cable called whale wars right now........lets just say boat dents sinereo is nothing compared to the bob barker trying to prevent the japanese mother ship. If a team mate is being payed to protect his spot you can bet he is going to do so "within the law" and more than likely you will wind up getting the fine before him!
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| That's exactly what I think Jerry's behavior could degrade tourneys to....... Walleye Wars. LOL
Plenty of ways to ward off Jerrys without doing anything "illegal". Accidents do happen. Sometimes props sometimes get wrapped in a few hundred feet of line also. Ask the clowns who do what he does in the fall around here. LOL |
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Location: Rhinelander | You obviously haven't fished many Pro/Am events. 'Protecting' a spot is VERY common. Doesn't happen much with the AIM Anglers, though.
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| Question though. Isn't interfering with or harassing an angler against the law in almost any state? It is here. And isn't it a DQ if you break the law during tourney hours? |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Blah Blah Blah Blah.....sign your name here brave man, like others do, instead of talking tough with nothing to back it up with!!! LOL.......... |
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Location: Neenah, WI | I've fished walleye tournaments from Montana to the Great Lakes and lots of places in between, including too many to count on Lake Winnebago, my "home lake". I'm a member of a team here at home, it's the only way to keep up with the Jones's. They'll never be able to stop people from working together.
As for tailpipers, excuse me while I throw up. I've had people crowd me, follow me and even watch me through binoculars. Some I've had serious words with, on and off the water. After a while you get to know who the serious tailpipers are and the word spreads pretty fast, jackasses.
I've fished Pro/Am tourneys on both sides and couldn't believe some of the unethical things I saw that were done by maybe 2% of the pros. I've also had amateurs in my boat who were willing to share what they did the day before. I turned one of them in at an In-Fisherman tourney because he didn't shut up.
I'm really surprised that people didn't know about teams in tourneys. It's been going on since the 80's and it won't stop. It's just another facet of tournament strategy. The sharing of prize money insures against liars and withholding info. Let the best angler win (the luckiest too).
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Location: Berlin | Well, this is getting fun!
Tailpipers...Jerry, you da man. We could put up literally hundreds of stories here about tailpipers.
I watched a good friend on day one fish an area all to himself, not another boat around. He was leading the event after that day. I took a video camera out the second day and taped over 50 boats in his spot (still have the footage). If I could have done something about it to help I would have, team or no team because nobody deserves that.
Spring Valley is the tailpiping capital of the world. I see it every year down there. Day two is pack day. Personally I think it is one of the biggest turn-offs for new guys getting in to the sport. Eliminate tailpiping and the sprow will grow. Much easier said then done. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Rich S - 8/23/2010 10:22 AM
Well, this is getting fun!
Tailpipers...Jerry, you da man. We could put up literally hundreds of stories here about tailpipers.
I watched a good friend on day one fish an area all to himself, not another boat around. He was leading the event after that day. I took a video camera out the second day and taped over 50 boats in his spot (still have the footage). If I could have done something about it to help I would have, team or no team because nobody deserves that.
Spring Valley is the tailpiping capital of the world. I see it every year down there. Day two is pack day. Personally I think it is one of the biggest turn-offs for new guys getting in to the sport. Eliminate tailpiping and the sprow will grow. Much easier said then done.
I dont think a new guy even knows what a tailpiper is. There is no school to attend. This is the first time many aspects of this game have been publicly revealed.
Shoot, before the internet the only way to learn was to go. Now, well they all enjoy tellin' everything.
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| Dale and others, In all your adventurers did you ever think your team had an advantage or disadvantage over another, because someone else had more man hours on the water, more members on a team, including friends or guides, bigger boats, or an unlimited budget to travel farther and find fish? Did your team constantly change members because of their ability to participate, share and/or profit for their participation? Did your "team" become close friends and teammates contributing for a cause? Did you have a good quarterback, offense and defense? Or was it just a driver and a $8/hour pit crew willing to work for bragging rights in their circle of friends.
Good Luck
Tyee |
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Location: Berlin | I new about them going into my first event (Spring Valley) but I was still floored when I saw it live in person. Nothing shocks me anymore but I do still get surprised now and then. |
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Location: Berlin | tyee - 8/23/2010 10:33 AM
Dale and others, In all your adventurers did you ever think your team had an advantage or disadvantage over another, because someone else had more man hours on the water, more members on a team, including friends or guides, bigger boats, or an unlimited budget to travel farther and find fish? Did your team constantly change members because of their ability to participate, share and/or profit for their participation? Did your "team" become close friends and teammates contributing for a cause? Did you have a good quarterback, offense and defense? Or was it just a driver and a $8/hour pit crew willing to work for bragging rights in their circle of friends.
Good Luck
Tyee
My opinion is a "good" team has a definite advantage but those are few and far between.
"Bad" teams have almost no advantage and mayeb even a slight disadvantage. Fishing is so mental and when a guy gets screwed by a member of his "team" he is pretty much mentally done.
My partner and I got shafted real bad one time by members of our "team". I still have not let it go and have a hard time fishing by them in a tournament. Most of the time I just pick up and move to the next spot. Some guys take it even harder and quit the entire sport all together. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Rich S - 8/23/2010 10:41 AM
Some guys take it even harder and quit the entire sport all together.
Honestly, I think that is exactly what is happening. The stand up guys are quiting and the new guys are reading and the sponsors feel it and no one wants to play that game. |
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Location: Berlin | I can tell you this, I will NEVER fish on a team again. Now add in my opinion on "good" teams and you can see where the problem for me lies. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Rich S - 8/23/2010 12:21 PM
I can tell you this, I will NEVER fish on a team again. Now add in my opinion on "good" teams and you can see where the problem for me lies.
Wow Rich, through the 3 pages you finally said it. Musta' stunned the crap out of them as well. It got quiiiieeettttt in here. |
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Location: Berlin | The mistake I (we) made is that money was never shared. I don't care how close of a friend you are money can do strange things. Unless you are splitting the money you will never be sure you are getting all or accurate information.
SO now you decide to form a team and share money. How many guys/gals do you have complete confidence in the fishing abilities? Keep in mind you are splitting up to cover water so if they check a spot you better be confident in THEIR results. Now picture the tournament was won in an area they said was not going (and truly believed it). Will there be any hard feelings? How about one member can't get enough time off from work and miss a couple days of prefishing. Do they still get an equal cut?? The scenarios are endless that can and do destroy teams.
It is not easy and that is why I always give a lot of credit to the teams that can make it work. I for one started doing a lot better when I got confidence in myself and stopped relying on other people. My bad experience with teams has had a lot of benefits as well.
Edited by Rich S 8/23/2010 3:29 PM
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| Hence a great argument for a formal sponsored team to be created with formal team rules. Otherwise the team format needs to be squashed completely and get back to fishing as an individual sport. It's too bad walleys travel in schools, and schools of people to fish together to catch them.
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| It's no wonder I don't get in more tournaments. I fish them to have fun,learn some things, and see how good I really am compared to everyone else. I do talk to friends and gather info before the tournament but not during. I don't think teams are a bad thing until it turns people into this Jerry guy. |
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Location: Berlin | trim-it-up - 8/23/2010 4:30 PM
It's no wonder I don't get in more tournaments. I fish them to have fun,learn some things, and see how good I really am compared to everyone else. I do talk to friends and gather info before the tournament but not during. I don't think teams are a bad thing until it turns people into this Jerry guy.
Would you let friend get screwed by tailpipers? Keep in mind you watched this friend bust his hump for years to get into this position and now it is finally here and the tailpipers are taking over his spot. |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Thanks Rich, Sunshine, and others who defended me.
I have a question: do those who oppose what I did think I acted on my own? Do you think I created this idea of defending my partners from tailpipers? I assure you this was not the first time a teammate fended off tailpipers from another teammate. Read some of the old In-fisherman accounts of the early MWC days involving McClelland and Roach...it's there for all to see if you find it.
I really do not think most of the people on this board have a clue of what I speak of. I do not understand why people would have a problem with what I did and what I would do again. I realize others are welcome to voice their opinion, but given the circumstances, if I am your team member, if we share money, and their is a threat to someone coming in and screwing up your chance to win $100,000 such as the case in my situation, I cannot see how they wouldn't react as I did, especially since my teammates were 100% behind me. I would think that, as your teammate, you would be happy to have someone on your side to do whatever it takes to help you win the tournament, as long as it's within the rules. Think about it!!!
Edited by jerry 8/23/2010 5:11 PM
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