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| Message Subject: WI VHS Regs make Ice Fishing with Live Bait a Challenge | |||
Sunshine |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Thanks Shore Fisherman !!! Our views are not that far apart. I do agree about the learning curve associated with our own DNR. I also know that those screaming now about the new regs would be the same people complaining that nothing was done if/when we see major die offs this spring or in the future. Nice post. | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | As I understand the virus, VHS is largely a cool water pathogen. It strikes in the early spring, and doesn't do much harm in warmer water, so with water temps where they are in June, I think the threat from a VHS outbreak has passed for the summer. If there's a VHS kill, it will be early; at least that's what I understand. Believe me, when there's a large fish kill anywhere, the biologists are on it, trying to figure out what happened. Call your local fisheries manager and ask the questions you might have, they do answer the phone and are willing to talk in most cases. I read the handout my son is distributing from the DNR, and it's pretty clear you can't transport live bait or live fish from one water body to another. Cross the water's edge or fish that water body, and you must kill the bait AND all kept fish. | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Dennis, That is what I was questioning. As you said, you may have wrote into it and I applaud your honesty. This is my follow up question. If the virus attackes one time and then its over, and please, don't drag me through glass on this one, How much harm could this do to a population of fish? Maybe it is mother natures way of saying, "Hey, there are to many fish in this area of a certain type, and we need to thin them down before they take over the whole waterway". Think about all the muskies that died at st. clair. They were a population that was started by man. They are the ultimate water wolf. We shot wolfs years ago and ...... well, I think you have my point. Not Always looking to stir the pot, just put it on simmer. | ||
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| Sunshine |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Sound bites from reports that scare me....... While the exact timing is impossible to determine, it is highly likely that the virus will be found throughout lakes Huron and Michigan in the next 2-4 years. This is based on the large scale fish movements, particularly Chinook salmon, between lakes Michigan and Huron, and long distance movement within each lake by Chinook and coho salmon along with walleyes and other prey species. If fish continues to be the key movement vector, the virus will likely take a long time to get established in Lake Superior as fish movement through the Soo Locks is limited. This situation could rapidly change if the key vector is ballast water exchange. Duluth Harbor in Western Lake Superior has the second highest ballast exchange rate in the Great Lakes and the Chicago area also has a very high ballast exchange rate. The virus could quickly be spread by this vector if the virus can remain alive for sufficient time to be transported by this method. If anglers and boaters also decide not to comply with the regulations in place in the region and move infected fish or water, the situation and distribution of the virus could also rapidly change. Anglers and/or recreational boaters are the likely mechanism. It is important to note that the virus distribution in lakes Michigan and Huron is very spotty at this time indicating that the infections are recent and only slowly moving in each lake. Lakes St. Clair and Erie have the virus broadly distributed throughout them There are no treatments at this time to stop horizontal (fish to fish) transmission or to treat infected fish. It is very unclear what the long-term risk is to our Great Lakes and inland fish stocks from this pathogen as susceptibility and virulence studies have not been done on this isolate. It can clearly cause large scale mortalities in susceptible fish populations. The potential long-term outcomes range from being a short term 1- time mortality factor to a pathogen that causes annual mortalities that will need to be factored into fisheries management plans. It also appears that there are a wide range of potential carriers for the pathogen which will need to be factored into fisheries management options. There is no doubt that this pathogen will always be an opportunistic disease agent in the Great Lakes region that will cause fish kills in the right conditions when fish populations are stressed. Since this pathogen can clearly cause large scale mortalities of valuable adult fish and it has a wide range of potential carriers, it is critical to make every attempt to contain the pathogen and not allow a rapid spread of the disease to all Great Lakes and inland waters. It should be noted that once a pathogen gets into a wild fish community, it is impossible to effectively eliminate it and control is highly unlikely. The good news.......... It is important to note that not all fish that are exposed to the virus die and many are capable of fighting off the disease. Repeated fish mortalities have not yet been documented in locations that had seen earlier VHS related fish kills. It is not known at this time how smaller inland lakes will respond to VHSv. We also do not know whether the virus will skip years or the role of environmental variables such as climate in causing the disease to be expressed. It is also unknown if standard salmonid egg disinfection techniques will work on coolwater fish eggs (walleye and muskies are examples) as their egg fertilization process requires the use of de-clumping agents that may interfere with the disinfection agents. This and other basic pathogen information will take time to develop and will greatly inform management decisions. Edited by Sunshine 12/28/2007 12:27 PM | ||
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| walleye express |
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 Member Posts: 2680 Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Sunshine The good news.......... It is important to note that not all fish that are exposed to the virus die and many are capable of fighting off the disease. Repeated fish mortalities have not yet been documented in locations that had seen earlier VHS related fish kills. It is not known at this time how smaller inland lakes will respond to VHSv. We also do not know whether the virus will skip years or the role of environmental variables such as climate in causing the disease to be expressed. I'm just a little skeptical of some of the good news. (It is important to note that not all fish that are exposed to the virus die and many are capable of fighting off the disease). I'm assuming the exposed fish capable of fighting off the disease would be fish in excellent physical shape. Healthy, un-stressed, well fed specimens. Hard to find in general and probably not the majority of any population I'm thinking, let alone during the spring when forage is scarce and everything they do (including their spawning cycle) is inherantly stressful. (We also do not know whether the virus will skip years or the role of environmental variables such as climate in causing the disease to be expressed.) Living in areas that historically have very cold water and ice cycles. And being told of the pathagens proven preference for spreading in these colder temps, I'm kinda lost (but willing to learn) about what they mean by environmental variables. Edited by walleye express 12/28/2007 1:18 PM | ||
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| Joel "Doc" Kunz |
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| Jayman, "just to clear up matters", why make such a flippant remark about Sunshines link and the cut and pasted info? If you are so well aware of VHS, then why be so vacuous in your posts about it. Links such as are posted and the cut and pasted material from accredited sources are needed and guys like you are the most important targets of this information. Not because you are uneducated, but because you are a voice that is heard, someone who is out there communicating with other anglers. Like Dennis and others said, we may not like or understand the rules but as sportsmen, we should do what we can to follow them. | |||
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| RedNeckTech |
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| Hey guys I came across your site and would like to add something. I am actively involved in the fishing industry and happen to live on Winnebago. First of all the fish kill on Winnebago was primarily sheephead, in fact mostly sheephead. The large fish kill in the great lakes was in the thousands, take that number and compare it to the actual fish population in the lakes and you get the idea on how small the problem is in the big sceme of things. This is exactly like CWD, it is blown up larger than it needs to be. The DNR did nothing to prevent CWD until it was knocking on our door and they still are doing nothing to stop VHS with the ocean going vessels. Second these new regs will do nothing to stop VHS, they were put into place to slow the spread not stop or eliminate it. Your biggest fear should be the Federal regulations on live bait, not the state. The Federal goverment has inditements agianst many minnow farms right now. If the minnow farms start disapearing like the local bait shops have been doing you're going to see your live bait costs sky-rocket. There is a group in MN pushing to ban all live bait fishing including wax worms. If you think these laws are being pushed just for the VHS you have your head in the sand. At one DNR meeting the question was asked about live bait left in the truck while out on the lake fishing. The DNR responce was any minnows that get within 4 feet of the shoreline must be killed before leaving the 4 foot area. This even includes if you are launching your boat and your minnow bucket is in the truck, your truck moves within the 4 feet you must kill the minnows in your bucket before you go park! This rule even appies to the leech water in the containers. You do not have to crush the minnows, just emptying the water from the bucket is good enough. And you must take the dead minnows home to dispose of them. This is serious, but I'm afraid the DNR is the problem for not being on the ball trying to stop VHS in the first place. After all, they have known about it for 65 years. | |||
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| Sunshine |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | "After all, they have known about it for 65 years."
That's news to me. Can you support this with documentation? Or are you referencing the strain mainly found in Europe and Japan?
Before mutating, this strain was only found in rainbow trout, Atlantic salmon, and a few turbot.
Are you suggesting that DNR personnel from around the country should have prepared for this mutation? | ||
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| ooops |
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| Hundreds of other exotics out there too, guess we should have banned live bait 65 yrs ago. How in the world does one plan for something like this? Tax the heck out of us to research a cure? Ban use of potential spreading methods? Ban fishing? I know ban boat travel! Your silly to think the DNR is responsible or even remotely at blame. | |||
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| Shore Fisherman |
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REDNECK....Your telling me back in 1943 they determined there was indeed VHS.....UM I don't think so!!  | |||
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| RedNeckTech |
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| All documents involving VHS in the begining state that VHS was discovered in trout farms in the 1940's, the word discoverd does have a meaning. Sorry but yes, the DNR and Enviromental Protection Agency holds the biggest bag of responsability on this. I wouldn't expect something to be done in 1945 but 65 years is an long time to do nothing. This problem entered the country by the east coast and was discovered there a few years before it hit here. By the DNR's own admission on their own website about Lake Michigan: "Despite these successes, the future of fishing on Lake Michigan is uncertain because the ecosystem is constantly changing. The steady flow of new exotic species, most of which are introduced through the discharge of ballast by ocean-going vessels, complicates our work and places all predictions in doubt." This is just one example where they know there is a problem but yet do not inact anything to prevent exotics from entering. Salmon are not native fish to Michigan. They were planted there after the fish population was devistated due to mis-management and eels. It is a fast growing and large breeding fish so it fit the bill. Take a look at the fish that live in lake Michigan, then look up to see how many of them are not native to the lake. I used to live out west and CWD has been out there for decades. It is not a big issue there. Here it's like the world is comming apart. It's the same with VHS. All indications are in Europe that VHS has had the biggest effect in fish farms, not in the wild. Why? Because the the population density is greatest in fish farms, in the wild the fish are not packed together. The virus lives only so long in the water so more fish come in contact with it in farms. My comment was intended more towards where the industry is going and how it will affect the fisherman. But if you want to concentrate on the number 65 and ignore what is comming down the pipe that's fine too. As Doug Stange of In-Fisherman told me earlier this year "The average fisherman doesn't concern himself with the politics of fishing until it is too late and it affects him in a negative manner. By then it's too late." | |||
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| Brad B |
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Member Posts: 617 Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Redneck - Stop making sense. It hurts my head. j/k The great lakes strain of VHS is somewhat different then the VHS virus that has been off the coast of the Atlantic for a few decades, but I agree with everything else you said. Do you have a theory on how VHS made it to Lake Winnebago? I'm waffling between contaminated baitfish getting shipped into the area OR contaminated water in the hulls and water pumps of boats that fished Erie in the spring then discharged those waters to Lake Winnebago/Green Bay. If the virus truly is much more prevelent in the spring (and not just more active then) it would stand to reason that it would have made it to Bago and Green Bay via contaminated boats or bait as few other bodies of water are open for fishing in April. If it simply were the use of bait from contaminated waters (with no regard for the water temperature from which the bait was caught), I would have expected positives in other bodies of water by now. | ||
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| Brad B |
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Member Posts: 617 Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | "REDNECK....Your telling me back in 1943 they determined there was indeed VHS.....UM I don't think so!! " Do a little research shore fishermen... he is 100% correct. The virus was identified decades ago in Europe and quite some time ago along the Atlantic coast. The Great Lakes strain is a little different, and no one know for sure when it got here, but there is no denying it has been around for a long time. | ||
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| RedNeckTech |
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| As a side note to show how serious the DNR actually takes VHS on 12/17/07 there was a golden shinner minnow purchased in Menasha that showed all the signs of VHS. The minnow died before the DNR was able to pick it up so it was frozen to be preserved. The DNR picked it up that night. I just talked to the DNR bio. and I was told that the minnow can't be tested unless it's alive and no action was taken to make sure any of the minnows in the tank it came from didn't have VHS. Two things, you tell me how they know what is killing the fish when the fish need to be alive to test? Second, Explain to me how this is being taken seriously when the didn't even do something simple live quarentine the tank it came from. All the other minnows were free to be bought and fished with all this time. | |||
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| RedNeckTeck |
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| Brad B I'm not sure exactly how it got to Winnebago, there are many ways including Waterfowl carring fish eggs and insect larvae in from Michigan. The Winnebago system is conected to Michigan, it could be very easy for a bird to carry an infected fish or two over the dam and dropped it into the Fox. I am sure it is a multitude of ways it got here. I just don't see a devistating effect that calls for all these new Federal and State regulations. Mother Nature has a way of equilizing everything. The DNR does go to certian lakes and kill off the lake or just a particular fish like bullheads and that is concidered good!? The biggest effect on Winnebago so far has been a killing of sheephead, complaints anyone? | |||
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| walleye express |
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Member Posts: 2680 Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | RedNeckTech - 1/4/2008 12:22 PM Salmon are not native fish to Michigan. They were planted there after the fish population was devistated due to mis-management and eels. It is a fast growing and large breeding fish so it fit the bill. Don't want to split hairs, and if my memory allows me, Salmon smolt were first planted by then Michigan DNR supervisor Dr. Howard Tanner in 1966 in Bear Creek, a stream connecting to the Big Manistee, to grow, migrate out to the Lake, then eat and keep in check the Ba-zillion of dying alewives (another transplant) that were spoiling every beach and ecosystem in virtually every Great Lake, save Lake Superior because of it's colder summer time temps. Lamprey EELs, (early 1900's Welland Canal transplants) were actually at their smallest invasive numbers in years during that time in the Great Lakes because they had all but desimated the Natural Lake Trout stocks (their only food source at the time) in all the Lakes as well. Edited by walleye express 1/4/2008 12:59 PM | ||
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| Shore Fisherman |
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REDNECKTECH....For the most part I was the one with a knee jerk reaction responding to you as I did. When someone states they have something pinpointed with this virus I automatically want to challenge because of all the uncertainty. I for one feel there is just so much uncertainty like my previous posts state....good luck and I appologize for ignorantly challenging!! Its friday and I'm going fishing this weekend!!!!!!  | |||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | I don't usually go out on a limb and confront anons but Redneck seems intelligent enough, yet seclusive enough that I would like to tap his brain a bit more. Redneck what should they (epa/dnr) have done ? You are quick to blame them. Where did they go wrong? WI has always had very stringent rules, why is this one so different? We are taking serious actions to deal with it, should they have done this 20/40 maybe 65 years ago and then it wouldn't bother you because you didn't know better? Does it personaly infringe on you or your income now and because you don't like it you look for fault/blame in OUR management? Could they have educated us faster? REALLY what could have been done for something that isn't there? Many of your comments are very good and I agree with alot of what you are saying, BUT I don't think anyone has the evidence to place blame just yet. I do like the way you vent your frustrations though! Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | I don't mind the question. But to fully understand where I come from and my information I will briefly explain my background. I help promote new products to the fishing industry and also have invented and co-invented products and lures that are commonly used in the industry. I am also the cartoonist for the largest syndicated fishing cartoon in the nation called Red Neck Tech. One of my closest friends is Gary Snyder, he started Jig-A-Whopper, Bad Dog Lures and Red Neck Teck and also brought Salmo to this country. I deal with two major minnow farms in MN, 8 editors of major publications and I deal with over 350 bait and tackle shops though out the Midwest. I also used to work closely with the DNR with the deer herds. My comments are stricktly comming from my view behind the scenes in all of the above fields. The DNR has been slow to non-responsive to any threat that comes to this state until it hits and it is too late. When they do respond it is in gross overdose of what is needed. The VHS is an issue but it is not such a threat that there needs to be all this regulations and heafty fines. As I stated earlier, in Europe VHS is a big concern in the fish farms due to the dense population in them but in the wild it has had a min. effect. One more example on how these laws do nothing is in some of the Indian treaties the state has to transplant sturgeon in to the upper lakes for the tribes to spear. Where do you think they get the sturgeon, Winnebago. I have heard nothing about halting this practice. That along with the ocean vessels ballast dumping going on in the great lakes is more than enough to show the lax attatude towards the real problems. I suggest actually enforcing no ballast dumping in the great lakes. Not only would this help with VHS but also stop the other invasives from entering. The ballasts have been the prefered transpertation mode of most of the invasive spieces and yet it still continues. It is my understanding also that Lake Michigan has a average temp. that is colder than what VHS normaly does it's damage in. The rules were fine when it pertaind to the great lakes and Winnebago system, but including all waters starting this year is insane. All minnow farms must test there brew for VHS and thay cannot raise two different types of minnows in the same ponds anymore. This costs the farms about $3,500 a test. This will effect the minnow prices. As long as the tests turn out good there should be no reason that anyone fishing should not beable to take their minnows to Hatch Lake, then go to White lake to fish. The thought in the industry is these laws are more for inceasing revenue than anything else. What is even scarier is the DNR have siad that the laws do not affect wax worms and nightcrawlers...yet. They actually say yet. From what I have seen in the industry, it scares me. Not the VHS but all the regulations comming down the pipe. You might ask why the DNR would place regulations in effect for the hell of it but then think, why did they go to all the farm fields and proclaim that any drainage ditch that would have more than a foot of water standing in them for 2 days was now a navagable water way and the farmers could not plant crops within 15' of them. How about recently the DNR comming up with regulations about docks being in 3 feet of water and the docks are not for fishing, diving or relaxing? So in the end, yes, my concern is with the DNR and Federal agencies. I'm looking at it from a complete industry standpoint. RedNeckTech | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | "The DNR has been slow to non-responsive to any threat that comes to this state until it hits and it is too late. When they do respond it is in gross overdose of what is needed." Do you understand the DNR's rule making authority? I think they responded pretty fast on VHS don't you? Be it a gross overdose or not, how would you have liked them to react? Do you have other ideas? Complaining that they didn't do anything before yet now you don't like what they did? The rule making process requires a rule that can be enforced, I don't see any other way around this if the intent and concern is about live bait (which it is right now) what would be better? I've seen nothing but complaining about this new bait law and have yet to hear one other reliable solution. This "overdose" as you call it has made it clear that they are serious and concerned about other lakes. They still have the authority to make rules like eliminating the use of live bait or prohibit the import of such, even prevent the transport of boats from one body of water to another. Maybe close the fishing season on the Winnebago system/Greatlakes untill the regular season opener to prevent the movement of bait and water to other lakes? would those have been better solutions? "I suggest actually enforcing no ballast dumping in the great lakes. Not only would this help with VHS but also stop the other invasives from entering." I couldn't agree more, Unfortunately this is Federal not DNR? They have even been forced to make regs. regarding the opening of the locks, they can't stop it and will only take the blame when it doesn't work! Your comments and frustration are evident and I agree but sure don't think sitting around and doing nothing as you have suggested they did in the past would be very appropriate. Good Luck Tyee Edited by tyee 1/5/2008 7:44 AM | ||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | All these regulations mean nothing if they are not enforced. I do realize the Federal gov. would be the one to address the ballast issue and that is why I include them in my comments. But if the DNR will not even test a minnow bought for bait that has all the signs of VHS muchless not even quarentine the tank until it is found not infected... That tells me there's more to this. There always have been fish kill offs in one fasion or another. Sheephead have always died in spring and summer (maybe not as large of one as this past year). Mother nature has always found a balance for her own problems, it's when peolple who think they know better get involved and may solve one problem but opens a Pandora's box on many others. Hatch lake in Iola used to have a kill off of northern every spring. To stop that the DNR installed a pump to force air in the lake. Sure, it stopped northern from dying in the spring but it also lowered the panfish because of all the northern and made the weeds grow out of control. Then they killed off all the bullhead which created even more problems. Solve one problem and create three others. There is no evidence anywhere (including Europe) that convinces me that VHS is a dire issue in the wild, sure it's there and could have been there all this time and just killed in smaller numbers. It is fish farms that have the biggest issue and in Eurpoe it is common. A few thousand fish dying in Lake Michigan is nothing compared to the population. And a mass killing of sheephead is a good thing. | ||
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| Dale |
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Member Posts: 874 Location: Neenah, WI | Here's what I've been hearing from ice fishermen: I'm taking my minnows home because I only fish Winnebago. (I can agree with that) Minnows are too expensive to kill and dump. The whole VHS thing is overblown. They've never heard of such a thing and I don't know what I'm talkig about. (I do) The DNR doesn't check, I'll never get caught. !@#$ the DNR!!!!! The whole deal is, if you get stopped you'll pay a big fine. People tend to want to kill the messenger, all I do is hand them a pamphlet and shut up. It'll be interesting to see if we have lots of dead/dying fish after we start cutting sturgeon holes. | ||
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| Brad B |
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Member Posts: 617 Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | "It'll be interesting to see if we have lots of dead/dying fish after we start cutting sturgeon holes." Dale - The vast majority of the fish kills have been related to large temperture changes immediately after the spawn. Personally, I doubt we'll see anything of significance, but if we are going to, it won't show up until late may when the sheephead and whitebass are done spawning. Watch the weather - a few calm, 80 degree days when the water is still quite cool might trigger a fish kill, just as it has happened here in the past. The size of the fish kill may be affected by the presence of VHS, but VHS hasn't been a world ender anywhere else yet, so I doubt its going to be one here. "I think they responded pretty fast on VHS don't you?" Tyee - NO. Not even close. DNR did very little IMHO until it was too late - when VHS was already here. VHS was present in Lake Erie for several years and I don't remember seeing anything regarding it until after a few sheephead tested positive for it last spring. | ||
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| walleye express |
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Member Posts: 2680 Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Maybe VHS won't be the silver bullet that wipes out vast stocks of our game fish Lakes wide. Maybe it's over blown. Maybe it's going to die on the vine like a few others viruses mentioned. I sincerely hope it does. My real personal, present concern is how long and at what cost will this fact finding mission could take. And what it's long term impact could be both on bait businesses along with the artificial taking, hatching and planting of walleye eggs and fingerlings in mine and other areas. We've been living high on the hog in my area these past 4 years with viable record natural reproductions and great young of the year survival rates. So the last 3 scheduled DNR walleye plantings were canceled, and in essence were not needed. This whole run of good luck for us walleye anglers has been at the expense of Lake Huron's Salmon fishermen and was because of Lake Huron's alewive collapse. Because of their massive absence, they are no longer gorging on and decimating the walleye naturals as they smolt out of our rivers and take their place in the ecosystem of the Saginaw Bay. But with no proven formula to inoculate walleye eggs against VHS, and not wanting to risk the virus ever getting into the hatchery system, planting walleyes in case of future low natural reproduction years is no longer an option. Now let this virus kill off a bunch of what we have in the Saginaw system right now, with no means to replace them period, and I feel like all our waterways have been diagnosed with cancer and the prognosis is still up in the air. Nobody just has a small case of cancer. And as we all know, only the people with cancer are willing to do anything they have to just to stay alive. And I'll never fault them for doing so. Edited by walleye express 1/6/2008 1:09 PM | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | Brad, The Three "E's", Education Education Education. More than 2 years ago we were having discussions ahere bout keeping the locks closed. Being Federal, the DNR has little to say about that. I know the DNR was informed to start speaking about VHS and invasives prior to Winter 06 for the 07 season. In fact in March it was Kendals' main topic of discussion at the Ice breaker. We didn't know it was here formally until May '07 so really I ask again what could they have done? Do you know something I don't? Do they have some sort of political arm in the legislature that I don't know about? ALL they talked about in Late '06 and '07 was VHS and other invasives! I think this is pretty quick, considering our locks to the great lakes are closed and the first signs of VHS in the US were in the great lakes in the spring of '05. Good Luck Tyee | ||
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