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Message Subject: 'Teams' in Pro Walleye Angling..Opinions? | |||
sworrall![]() |
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Location: Rhinelander | Explain how/why working as teams is unethical. Each angler still has to put it all together on game day and put the fish in the net. SO... | ||
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RNT![]() |
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First...putting it all together on game day...is that meaning that on a multiple day tournament that all "team" information sharing ends for the entire event at the start of the gun on the first day? | |||
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proeye![]() |
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Member Posts: 148 | RNT do you fish any large tournaments? | ||
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RNT![]() |
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proeye - 6/6/2010 9:11 PM RNT do you fish any large tournaments? Does that matter? This thread was asking what both the Anglers think of the practice, and perhaps as importantly, what the fans think. | |||
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sworrall![]() |
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Location: Rhinelander | Please don't answer a valid question with a nonsense question, RNT. Answer the question, please, or bow out. | ||
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proeye![]() |
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Member Posts: 148 | RNT if your a fan? please enter one of aim tournaments fish as a non boater and prefish wtih us during the week before, after doing this i think you have a better understanding of what were talking about, i'm always looking for good fans thanks JIM PYLE NPPA 811 ![]() | ||
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RNT![]() |
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I’m supposed to explain ethics to a practice that doesn’t have a solid meaning….alright… Ethics are not just for the members in the sport, but they are also for the public and it lends credibility to the sport in the public eye. The sport constantly attempts to remind the public that the Pro-fisherman is not only the cream of the crop of the fishing world but they are also held to higher standards. The sport is based on individuals competing against individuals, not a group of individuals ganging up on single individuals. You want to be called a pro in an individual’s sport but yet rely on groups of others in the hopes you win…that is ethical? It gives a plain disadvantage to fishermen that don’t have teams in a sport that is not meant to, set-up for or required to have teams. The game is rigged. These team members are not registered, sanctioned or accountable to the sport as a team, and on stage no one knows if the win is due to team information. There is no accountability as to why the information was given to a particular player or if it gave an unfair advantage over the other fishermen. The teams are not regulated and have no guidelines they have to follow…where are the ethics in this? Fisherman22 pays $1,500 to fish a tournament but fishermen 2, 4 and 7 decided they want to team up. 2, 4 and 7 have come to an agreement that they will pool their knowledge and take turns using the information at different tournaments allowing each to have a greater chance at winning a tournament. #2 gets all the information at Red Wing, #4 gets all the information on Bago and #7 gets all the information for Saginaw. Meanwhile #22 is solo at every event and just because he does not have the top secret groupie decoder ring and hand shake he is put at a severe disadvantage. Meanwhile the directors sit by and say “so what?” #2, 4 and 7 are allowed to cover 3 times the ground for the gain of one player while others can’t…and it’s allowed. No ethic problems there? You have no idea that is not going on because you refuse to reign in the activity and regulate it. Pro2 gets a cash sponsorship from Billy’s Big Old Boats for $5,000 and Billy expects his paid pro to do well and bring his boat company into the lime light but pro2 is in a “team” and he gives information to Pro5 resulting in Pro5 catching a walleye giving Pro5 a first place win…Mr. Billy is supposed to be happy with that? Where does it end? Yes, I believe the practice is unethical unless you change the name of the game to teams. Proeye, would love to meet you sometime. | |||
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sworrall![]() |
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Location: Rhinelander | OK, Pros, explain to RNT how some Pros work together, please. Then let's hear from those who don't like the idea of Pros working together how they would regulate the practice. | ||
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RedNeckTech![]() |
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Member Posts: 319 | The moment tournaments went from a friendly competition between buddies to a sport that engages and asks for support from the public, it lost its sole authority to navigate in the direction that just the players wanted. The sport is no longer a bunch of friends getting together and playing a little game of wager for fun but rather a merchandise driven industry has arose with the top public figures being the Pro-fishermen. Along with the tournament directors, the pros engage the public for financial support of the sport along with aspiring to grow fan bases. The public includes me…and many, many others that are fans of the sport but do not agree with all the decisions or directions the industry decides it wants to embark on. The main (and pretty much only) ways that are allowed by the industry for the general public to give input about what is going on is either through the pocket book or a few websites. The public can choose not to espouse the sport monetarily or it can venture to a website and vent frustration there…the first is the safer route. Why? Because it becomes dreadfully apparent the lion's share of the industry does not want to hear the negative…just the positive pat on the back. Teams…like them? Don’t like them? Respond in the negative and something happens that other sport would cringe at…the person gets attacked. Many times it is not on the merit of the response but rather the writing style the individual uses. When anyone in the industry asks for honest opinions the reaction from the response should not be visceral. I gave my answer to the question and chose to put it in the form of a hypothetical scenario with no intention of malice. I shortly found out that my answer was taken that way. I can only assume it was the wording “You want to be called a pro in an individual’s sport but yet rely on groups of others in the hopes you win…that is ethical?” The response was not aimed at anyone but rather give the overall view of a large portion of fishermen who do not like the practice along with the nagging fact that a much larger portion of the public has a unenthusiastic view of the sport…something the industry has a hard time comprehending. Would I re-word it if I could…no. It was never meant to be taken personal by anyone (along with the entire post) but for some insane reason this whole industry takes all criticism as if they are getting slapped in the face personally. It gets old when an industry or individual cannot take constructive criticism without trying to paint the person with an anti-pro fisherman, anti tournament brush. Any one who knows me, actually talked to me or has been involved with what I do knows that I am concerned with the industry and want to see it on a firm footing again. My question is when someone becomes a pro fisherman or a leader in the industry what gives them immunity from being told to straighten up…the sport was not meant to be this way. Teams have ambiguity surrounding them and it is very apparent not only in fishermen who do not want to fish with them involved, but also the public…whom the industry engages for support. I have now heard three different reasons on why teams are formed along with how and when they team up. Is it just to share expenses? Is it to share information during pre-fishing? Is it to share information during the duration of the event? What is it…what is the definition of a “team” and under what parameters do they function under? There is an image problem with “teams” and no one, and I mean no one has any right to complain about that image when the industry created it by not clearly defining it for the fishermen, and more importantly the public. If the overall stance in the sport is “I pay so I will play how I want, it is none of your business because you don’t tournament fish”… then stop approaching the public for support and bring the sport back to its roots as a friendly competition among buddies. If the industry keeps courting the public…then handle it. The criticism is not coming from PETA trying to shut the sport down for crying out loud, it’s coming from people who, believe it or not, are just as concerned as you but happens to see thing at different angles. Why post this on two sights? It has a 50% chance of being deleted. | ||
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Jim Ordway![]() |
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Member Posts: 538 | I would argue that working with teams makes you a better angler and broadens your exposure with new ideas and approaches. I would also argue that idividuals are at a distinct disadvantage becasue of shear logistics. Solution, develop networks of fishing freinds as you do in your normal social networking. In all forms of life, this is a normal cycle of relationships. It just happens to be fishing. People find jobs via relationships, join various sporting teams through relationships, join churches groups, social groups...... Man has learned long ago that he can not survive alone. Join the crowd. Take care, Jim O | ||
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sworrall![]() |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'The response was not aimed at anyone but rather give the overall view of a large portion of fishermen who do not like the practice along with the nagging fact that a much larger portion of the public has a unenthusiastic view of the sport…something the industry has a hard time comprehending. ' 'The main (and pretty much only) ways that are allowed by the industry for the general public to give input about what is going on is either through the pocket book or a few websites.' I am absolutely certain that isn't true. 'My question is when someone becomes a pro fisherman or a leader in the industry what gives them immunity from being told to straighten up' My answer is simple as well, you do not have any base or grounds personally to tell anyone in any industry to 'straighten up'. You may make reasonable suggestions, sure. Offer your opinion reasonably, sure. Do so with due respect, and there's no issue. Forget that due respect, and there IS an issue. Please explain WHO has an unenthusiastic view of the sport, WHO the 'large portion of fishermen' are and maybe take a look at what you said and how you said it. Blanket statements like that one don't sit well because they are totally unsubstantiated and intended to add strength to personal opinion; back your comments up. You have a tendency to state 'facts' that aren't. 'If the overall stance in the sport is “I pay so I will play how I want, it is none of your business because you don’t tournament fish”… then stop approaching the public for support and bring the sport back to its roots as a friendly competition among buddies.' That is not and never has been the 'overall stance' of walleye tournament fishing. It is another statement that is intended by the author to be presented as fact, and it isn't. Stop approaching the public for support? What does that mean? 'What is it…what is the definition of a “team” and under what parameters do they function under? There is an image problem with “teams” and no one, and I mean no one has any right to complain about that image when the industry created it by not clearly defining it for the fishermen, and more importantly the public. ' Look, please, at who is complaining...and who isn't. Again, without all the falderal, please explain how the Pros should be 'regulated' by the Circuits, what benefit those regulations will offer, and why. | ||
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proeye![]() |
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Member Posts: 148 | Bingo. But it happens when i own 2 large companies and maybe its funded through my companies, are you still going to tell me what i can do or what i can't do. i don't think so!!! alot of use touring pros own large companies and are self funded; did you know that? and alot of us give back to fishing industries you don't hear about that! and believe or not, team fishing started on the very first tournament that started in 1979; the Manion walleye series. and it was started by our sponsors, they pick out guys to be on their teams, through out the years teams got larger, fishing sponsors want to see there company up front, their names heard and seen at every tourney just like nascar , golf, etc...that's the nice thing about being American. you might see me as a stuck up pro, but you really don't any thing about me, and people should do a little research about things before commenting, i do ,, so if you think teams are unethical tell or sponsors... they invented it, | ||
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Shep![]() |
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Member Posts: 3899 | RNT - 6/5/2010 11:09 PM Yes unregulated. The Co-angler is forbidden on any information sharing immediately after the rules meeting but the Pro is not. RNT, it's quite obvious you have never fished a Pro/AM event. To say the co-angler is forbidden on any information sharing after the rules meeting is simply not true. The co-angler is forbidden from sharing information learned from his day one and day two pro, with his day two and day three pros. I can share any information I want with any of the 3 pro's, as long as it is not information during the previous day's compertition. It used to be, until a couple years ago, that Pro's could share information on the water, during tournay hours. Directly. That practice, in the FLW, ended about 3 years ago. Because I haven't fished an AIM event, yet, I don't know all the rules there, but I suspect they are the same. Does that stop the teams from communicating on the water? Hardly. There's all sorts of non-verbal communication that goes on. And you must always remember to put the qaulifier, IMO, when you make statements that are in fact, just your opinion. And the term "shadow team" makes it sound sinister, and implies less than honorable. Far from the truth. You have organized how many Pro tournamments? How many have you fished in? How many as a Pro? How many as a co/Amateur? Your answer to these questions will give a bit of insight to your statements above. Where things are lax is in the enforcement, and consequences of some rules, for some anglers. Why don't you ask Mike Gofron or Mark Martin and a couple others, why they quit fishing FLW events? Their loss in that Tour was a pretty big one, IMO. I like what Thumper said. Teams make individuals better. That is all there is to it. | ||
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proeye![]() |
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Member Posts: 148 | the only way for you to know what we are talkig about is to experience it fish as a non boater in aim. i say non boater instead of pro, that is there are alot of good fisher people out there, but it comes down to money, they could be as good as any top pro on the circuit now if they had a chance, do you know that i sponsor people fishing , probaly not but i you want to see what were talking about? i will pay your way so you can experice it, or come and hang with me in green bay, i think it will open your eyes, thanks jim | ||
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Sunshine![]() |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | RNT: I always enjoy reading your insights. You usually give a perspective that is always unique and often entertaining. However, I must admit that I am offended with your continual use of the term unethical.The term “unethical” means that you are not conforming to agreed upon standards of moral conduct, especially within a particular profession. Ethics are the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group or culture. Ethics deal with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions. You are painting an extremely broad brush here and it sounds like you are declaring most of us involved in tournament fishing as unethical. This is unnecessary and tragic. As a result your message is going unheard and ridiculed. That’s sad. You may have ideas that warrant discussion but your delivery is causing most to ignore or disregard the message. To call those who “team up” as unethical, you will need to share your facts on what standards they are breaking. What rules of conduct are they not adhering to? Tell us the rules they are violating. By your own admission, you say that the tournament directors know that “teaming up” is occurring yet they do nothing. How can this be unethical if it is a common practice that is accepted by the very people who run the tournament circuits?
I write this with no intention of malice. I and many others have no problem with constructive criticism. But change does not happen with name calling.
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Shep![]() |
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Member Posts: 3899 | RNT - 6/6/2010 10:13 PM The sport is based on individuals competing against individuals, not a group of individuals ganging up on single individuals. Ganging up? Please. and on stage no one knows if the win is due to team information. Again, not only haven't you fished in one of these tourneys, it appears you've never been to a final day weigh in. Winners, and high placers regularly thank their teammates. The teams are not regulated and have no guidelines they have to follow…where are the ethics in this? You use the term ethical too loosely. If somebody is breaking establishedrules or standards, they are acting unethically. If somebody does something you don't agree with, that's your opinion, and not unethical. Dennis is right on, here. Said it better than I did. take turns using the information at different tournaments allowing each to have a greater chance at winning a tournament. #2 gets all the information at Red Wing, #4 gets all the information on Bago and #7 gets all the information for Saginaw. Sorry, you have no clue what you are talking about. Jerry, have you ever taken a dive so Dan could finish higher than you? Meanwhile #22 is solo at every event and just because he does not have the top secret groupie decoder ring and hand shake he is put at a severe disadvantage. Meanwhile the directors sit by and say “so what?” And I say so what? #22 is solo for several reasons. He may choose it. He may not be a nice guy, and can't get along with anybody, and isn't accepted into a team. He may be a rotten angler, and can't work his way into a team. He may not be trustworthy, and cannot get into a team. At a disadvantage? Possily, but mostly of his own doing. #2, 4 and 7 are allowed to cover 3 times the ground for the gain of one player while others can’t…and it’s allowed. No ethic problems there? You have no idea that is not going on because you refuse to reign in the activity and regulate it. It's for gain of all the anglers in the team. Not just one member. Remember the old adage. There is no "I" in team. Pro2 gets a cash sponsorship from Billy’s Big Old Boats for $5,000 and Billy expects his paid pro to do well and bring his boat company into the lime light but pro2 is in a “team” and he gives information to Pro5 resulting in Pro5 catching a walleye giving Pro5 a first place win…Mr. Billy is supposed to be happy with that? I suspect that Mr. Billy is well aware that Pro2 is on a team, and that team is successful, and that is what got Pro#2 noticed, and his Big Old Boat sponsorship, in the first place. Edited by Shep 6/7/2010 9:04 AM | ||
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stacker![]() |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I can see there are 2 very opposite sides to this debate. Both feel that they are right as well. I think they are both right. As a fan, I will side with the "rather not see teaming up." The whole pro-am format is comprimised by the teaming up. I also do not believe some have the ethics to know when and where you share information. There will always be someone who wants to "Push" The envelope. I do however feel that there could be a series that would not only allow it, but encourage team formation. A whole new twist. I think we could see some very large sponsors if done correctly. Anyone ever watch peddle bike racing? The 6 hour long distance stuff? On the other hand, I would like to see a series that strictly forbids it. Its all on ones integrity as to whether he talked or not, but.... For the purist, I cetainly think it could be done. Hey pro-eye, take it easy man, with out fans the sport dies. answers like you gave will help nothing. Shep, you have had the privilige to know some good teams. Most do not work like theres. | ||
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Guest![]() |
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There goes half an hour i won't get back. | |||
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Another Guest![]() |
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I think Hell just froze over because I agree with Stacker for a change. Nice post Denny! Circuits need to police themselves much better to not only improve their own image but also positively reflect their sponsors. You have Pro's now who hardly even pre-fish and let their staff and team fish for them or they spend a few days with local guides which is in violation of all major circuits that I am aware of. Heck even guys in the MWS are hiring guides for multiple days. Has anyone seen team meetings before your flight where waypoints are exchanged and baits are given to each other, I have! How about the boaters who complained to the MWC official yesterday about boaters who were giving information over the radio and the official just gave them a blank stare. Let's declare openly who is on what team so the sponsors and crowd knows. You would not have any confusion about who was working with whom. We as fisherman need to have a higher level of integrity not only as stewards of a resource but as professionals as well. The end justifies the means does not cut it. People following this thread closely expect much more of us and we should not try to belittle them. Just another lowly guest | |||
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RNT![]() |
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Point conceded on using the term ethical too loosely. But most are looking at the practice through the eyes of a tournament fisherman and not through an uninformed public. You want the public to support a sport but just go back and read the comments and show where anyone clearly explained team functions before my last comment. The explanation was very broad and the timeframes when they cooperate are to, people form broad opinions from a broad definitions. Is it the public's responsibility to educate themselves or the industry's responsibility to educate the public? The opinions are going to form no matter what and I would think it would be more desirable to cut wrong opinions off at the pass than let them fester and grow which is what is happening with teams. I have been to many events, I used to work for a lure manufacture. I threw out a view point that, like it or not, is out there and the main explanation on teams seems to be go to an event and find out. No matter how the opposing view point would have been written the reaction would be the same. Instead of being ahead of the curve it is behind as far as information. The fan base and public is not as well informed as the ones playing the game and they probably will never be. Much of what I write is to shed light on opposing views because the industry does not want to confront it or acknowledge it half the time and they have to be brought out. I do it because whatever damage gets thrown back does not affect me, others it would harm. Think what you will about my technique but it gets the viewpoint out there and by no means is that perception limited to just the walleye world. Yes I know many here fish many events and the knowledge and viewpoint are pretty solid on how things work within the tournament world...on the same note I work with 42 publication editors and am quite aware of the public perception and mood. The concept of teams in the sport as it is set up does not seem right. If teams are what people want, there are better ways to go about it...make it a team sport all the way around...that was the main point Be offended if you must but it was not directed or written for that purpose. With some of the things that have been written here in the past there are many that needed to have thick skins. The concern on that needs to go both ways. . | |||
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Horshak![]() |
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Member Posts: 921 Location: Manitowoc, WI | I don't care what tyou guys say, I'm teaming up with my boys. They know how to catch fish. Just thought I'd enlighten this post a little with something that really matters. Our future! Attachments ---------------- ![]() | ||
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eye fan![]() |
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Thx Bob for the breath of fresh air, and thank Mother Nature for the boys getting thier looks from thier moms genes. J/K Also LMAO @ proeye calling out RNT in the same breath as calling himself a Touring Pro, fishing 1 event outside of the 50 mile radius of the house a year must be the only qualification for the title. | |||
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620![]() |
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Member Posts: 397 Location: Badgerland | AMEN STACKER... every word... | ||
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thumper![]() |
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Member Posts: 744 | We don't give a rat's rear end if you are on a team or not. We came to see how our brother/dad/cousin/uncle/friend did in the tournament and to see the big fish. Sincerely- Every person who has ever attended a walleye tournament weigh-in. | ||
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Shep![]() |
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Member Posts: 3899 | stacker - 6/7/2010 12:01 PM Shep, you have had the privilige to know some good teams. Most do not work like theres. OK, then how do most teams work? All for one, and take turns being that was, as RNT described all teams? Yes, I know some good teams. In fact, I know probably the best team out there. They don't work anything like RNT describes. In any way. These guys are the smartest, and the hardest working guys out there. The individuals make the team better as a whole.They get along, they trust each other implicitly, they have fun. But most of all, they are all talented anglers, they work eaqually hard, and they don't hold anything back....on information, or on tournament day. They all go for the win. That's why you'll see one of them win one tourney, another or two make the cut. And I'm not so sure the "public" or the "fans" actually know that teams exist, or even care for that matter. As for complaing this weekend about some locations given out over the radio? if you are a competitor, there is a vehicle in place for protesting this. Poney up the fee, and file the protest. You might get more than a blank stare. You might get an investigation, and justice. Horshak. Nice eye's. Who took them out? hehehe Edited by Shep 6/7/2010 3:23 PM | ||
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