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Dale |
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Member Posts: 874 Location: Neenah, WI | I'm on your side Jerry. You did what you had to do, I would do the same or expect my team to do it for me. Rich cited Spring Valley. WOW. Now that's where the old MWC thing came from: Most Will Crowd. Been there and fought them off. Especially that sand spit under the Lincoln Bridge. I lost my voice there one day a few years ago. I thunk the crowders got my point. | ||
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| LurePresentation |
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Member Posts: 132 | It doesn't matter how long ago tailpiping and holding locations for other anglers have occured, both angler types are a load of crap! It takes away from the authenticity of how great these guilty anglers really are. Anglers who don't tailpipe and hold locations for others, rock in the public's eye! Larry | ||
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| trim-it-up |
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Member Posts: 197 | I'm not saying its wrong to defend or help your partners,I'm just saying if it leads to fighting or damaging someones boat I would have to ask myself if its worth the stress. Dale and I had a bet over a beer for Otter street and I won. The fun thing was he bought me the beer when it was free beer anyway. I don't think he would chase me off his spot just to win a beer bet. You throw $100,000 in that bet and and people act a little crazy if you ask me. Just for the record I have allot of respect for Dale and would not move in on him in the first place. | ||
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| Boat Dents |
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| Someone please define a tail piper to me. How can someone be tail piping if you're off fishing your other two or three spots first and not even there? If you're not there or leave, tooooooo bad! The spot is open game. You can't claim 5 or 6 spots as "yours". If that spot was so damn good, why aren't they fishing it? I can see a team mate occupying a spot and FISHING it in a rotation, but to just sit there as a nothing but a guard and cut people off, etc takes it a bit too far and should be a DQ for violating state laws during the tourney. | |||
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| Rich S |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | Holding a spot for somebody and fending off tailpipers are two totally different situations. P.S. I have a lot of respect for Dale also. I did not know anyone (not one) person in the tournament world when I started. Dale and Ginny were some of the first friends I made. | ||
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| Rich S |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | Boat Dents - 8/23/2010 6:15 PM Someone please define a tail piper to me. How can someone be tail piping if you're off fishing your other two or three spots first and not even there? If you're not there or leave, tooooooo bad! The spot is open game. You can't claim 5 or 6 spots as "yours". If that spot was so damn good, why aren't they fishing it? I can see a team mate occupying a spot and FISHING it in a rotation, but to just sit there as a nothing but a guard and cut people off, etc takes it a bit too far and should be a DQ for violating state laws during the tourney. In your example you are totally correct, the spot is fair game. How would you like to have been the first boat out on day one, caught all your fish from one spot that you shared with two other boats and ended up leading the tournament after day 1. Now you are the last boat out on day 2 and when you get to the spot there are 100 boats on it. In over half of the team tournaments I have fished the leaders after day 1 usually are by themselves or in a small pack of boats (10 or less). It never fails that the second day half the field or more start out magically on that spot. Some of it is innocent but most are not. My buddy literally had his spot to himself on day one but it was a high traffic spot so many people saw him there. Day two you could walk across all the boats there were so many. THOSE are tailpipers. Don't even get me started on net droppers. I am not implying that I am perfect and I have made my share of mistakes. I made one this year during the Merc that I feel horrible about and did everything I could to make it right. It is really hard sometimes to not get caught up in the moment. Edited by Rich S 8/23/2010 6:41 PM | ||
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| Boat Dents |
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Rich S - 8/23/2010 6:27 PM Boat Dents - 8/23/2010 6:15 PM Someone please define a tail piper to me. How can someone be tail piping if you're off fishing your other two or three spots first and not even there? If you're not there or leave, tooooooo bad! The spot is open game. You can't claim 5 or 6 spots as "yours". If that spot was so damn good, why aren't they fishing it? I can see a team mate occupying a spot and FISHING it in a rotation, but to just sit there as a nothing but a guard and cut people off, etc takes it a bit too far and should be a DQ for violating state laws during the tourney. In your example you are totally correct, the spot is fair game. How would you like to have been the first boat out on day one, caught all your fish from one spot that you shared with two other boats and ended up leading the tournament after day 1. Now you are the last boat out on day 2 and when you get to the spot there are 100 boats on it. In over half of the team tournaments I have fished the leaders after day 1 usually are by themselves or in a small pack of boats (10 or less). It never fails that the second day half the field or more start out magically on that spot. Some of it is innocent but most are not. My buddy literally had his spot to himself on day one but it was a high traffic spot so many people saw him there. Day two you could walk across all the boats there were so many. THOSE are tailpipers. Don't even get me started on net droppers. I am not implying that I am perfect and I have made my share of mistakes. I made one this year during the Merc that I feel horrible about and did everything I could to make it right. It is really hard sometimes to not get caught up in the moment. In Jerry's situation, I think it's still wrong to be so agressive to the point of cutting people off and such. Your only role out there, being an enforcer, not even fishing. THAT takes teams in individual tournament WAY too far. Tailpiping in the sense you mentioned is part of the game. Always has been, and always will be. All you can legally do is bitch. Trust me, I'd LOVE to see a reality TV show of Walleye Wars, where people pull the stuff Jerry did, and take it even to another level, but I don't want to see team/gang warware on the water on the current circuits. | |||
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| jerry |
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Member Posts: 2567 Location: Manitowoc, WI | In Jerry's situation, I think it's still wrong to be so agressive to the point of cutting people off and such. Your only role out there, being an enforcer, not even fishing. THAT takes teams in individual tournament WAY too far. Tailpiping in the sense you mentioned is part of the game. Always has been, and always will be. All you can legally do is bitch. Trust me, I'd LOVE to see a reality TV show of Walleye Wars, where people pull the stuff Jerry did, and take it even to another level, but I don't want to see team/gang warware on the water on the current circuits. ROFLMAO!!!!! | ||
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| LurePresentation |
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Member Posts: 132 | To much time battling warriors while on the water, then this new fishing magazine is for you. Walleye Wars!!! Features anglers against anglers for anglers and how they cope with stress while fighting for key positions while on the water. The uprising magazine will have such articles as "How to hold a team members spot while under duress", "What to do if a net actually chases after your boat", and "Keeping those pesky pipers off of your tail". So send your subscription fee of your top 10 favorite crankbaits to the Lurepresentation Foundation. Trust me, I will put those baits to good use. Larry CEO and Chairman of the Lurepresentation Foundation | ||
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| Boat Dents |
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Laugh. You've obviously only run up against wussys in that situation. I'm no seasoned tourney vet, but have been in that situation against a "Jerry" quite a few times in tourneys and in hot recreational spots. Especially if I have the legal right of way, I just turn my back and keep on a movin'. "Jerry" has moved EVERY single time.  Been a few close ones though.  Question for Jerry. What do you do if you're playing "defense" and an innocent recreational angler rolls into the area? Is it still game on and screw everyone for the $$$? | |||
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| LurePresentation |
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Member Posts: 132 | Still to much time battling warriors while on the water, then this new advanced fishing magazine is for you. Walleye Wars II!!! Features anglers against anglers for anglers and how they cope with stress while fighting for key positions while on the water. The uprising advanced magazine will have many articles such as "How to keep a Jerry off your covert spot", "What to do if problem tailpiper finds you", and "Waypoint secrets". So send your subscription fee of your other top 10 favorite crankbaits to the Lurepresentation Foundation. Trust me, I will put those baits to good use, even in your waters! Larry CEO and Chairman of the Lurepresentation Foundation Edited by LurePresentation 8/23/2010 10:20 PM | ||
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| I like it... |
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| Think we're on to something. All these newly discovered teams can pool some money together and buy entry spots for a couple of their own "Jerry's" to have on the team. Spots will be guarded, entries and payouts will go up, and there will be the same number of competitors actually competing | |||
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| Dale |
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Member Posts: 874 Location: Neenah, WI | I do not and never will advocate the idea of someone "holding" a spot for a tournament angler. The spot under the Lincoln Bridge on the Illinois River at Spring Valley is a spit of sand that comes out from shore. We were fishing there in a MWC event several years ago in pretty stiff current. I couldn't focus on anything but running the bow mount and only fished with 1 rod while my wife was doing most of the catching from the back of the boat. People kept trying to crowd me off the spot and I started chewing some butt. Ginny would catch a few small fish and then a decent one. It really was a 1 boat spot. When it was time for us to leave and I let the boat slip off of there, you should have seen the chinese fire drill with 10 or so boats trying to get on there. What gets my goat is like Rich said, if I was doing well on Sat. with only a few boats around and on Sun. I'm surrounded by 50 boats and can't fish effectively, I've been tailpiped and I'll darn sure let you know about it. Three years ago one boat from my team won Otter St. We intentionaly stayed about a mile away from him on Sun. I didn't want to pull a 25 incher in front of him and ruin his chances. They won and we drank their beer. Win win all around. Edited by Dale 8/24/2010 5:45 AM | ||
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| Guest |
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Shep - 8/18/2010 11:06 AM You think this is the first public mention that teams exist? Evidently, you haven't paid any attention to the comments made by the 2 leading money winners in Walleye tournament fishing. Comments about and thanking teammates were made, publically, made as far back as 2001 that I know of, and more than likely, even before that. To suggest that Gary Parsons and Perry Good were the first to openly mention they are members of teams is inaccurate at best. As for any changes that will now be a result of these two mentioning teams? Uhm, no. This "revelation" will have absolutely no effect on the future success or failure of Pro Walleye Tourneys. Any changes on the horizon will happen regardless of teams, and are going to happen because of new marketing strategies, new exciting tourney venues, non-endemic sponsorship, a better economy(most important), new tourney formats and promotion, individual angler promotion, etc. As to the co-anglers complaining their info was not used? Unlike FLW, AIM has the following rule. "After the start of the pre-tournament Rules Meeting, AIM Co-Anglers are prohibited from sharing fishing information, including fishing spots, methods, or fishing tackle, with AIM Pro Anglers until the completion of the tournament. Violations will result in the disqualification of the Co-Angler and the Pro Angler who uses this information. NO EXCEPTIONS" Prpbably lucky for them, the Pros didn't turn them in, eh? Besides, as a co, who cares if the pro does great or not? Except for having fun catching a lot of fish, and maybe learning a new presentation, or location, if the Pro isn't catching many fish, it's not like the Co's are competing against each other. And one can also learn from unsuccessful presentaion and locations, too. Just for the records, the first formal, public "thank you" to team members that exposed the team concept, was at the PWT champioinship awards banquet in 1993. (per my weather-beaten memory) | |||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | Guest - 8/24/2010 7:30 AM Shep - 8/18/2010 11:06 AM You think this is the first public mention that teams exist? Evidently, you haven't paid any attention to the comments made by the 2 leading money winners in Walleye tournament fishing. Comments about and thanking teammates were made, publically, made as far back as 2001 that I know of, and more than likely, even before that. To suggest that Gary Parsons and Perry Good were the first to openly mention they are members of teams is inaccurate at best. As for any changes that will now be a result of these two mentioning teams? Uhm, no. This "revelation" will have absolutely no effect on the future success or failure of Pro Walleye Tourneys. Any changes on the horizon will happen regardless of teams, and are going to happen because of new marketing strategies, new exciting tourney venues, non-endemic sponsorship, a better economy(most important), new tourney formats and promotion, individual angler promotion, etc. As to the co-anglers complaining their info was not used? Unlike FLW, AIM has the following rule. "After the start of the pre-tournament Rules Meeting, AIM Co-Anglers are prohibited from sharing fishing information, including fishing spots, methods, or fishing tackle, with AIM Pro Anglers until the completion of the tournament. Violations will result in the disqualification of the Co-Angler and the Pro Angler who uses this information. NO EXCEPTIONS" Prpbably lucky for them, the Pros didn't turn them in, eh? Besides, as a co, who cares if the pro does great or not? Except for having fun catching a lot of fish, and maybe learning a new presentation, or location, if the Pro isn't catching many fish, it's not like the Co's are competing against each other. And one can also learn from unsuccessful presentaion and locations, too. Just for the records, the first formal, public "thank you" to team members that exposed the team concept, was at the PWT champioinship awards banquet in 1993. (per my weather-beaten memory) I didn't see I wasn't logged in. I posted the previous "just for the records" info. | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | Boat dents - 8/21/2010 2:26 PM "Allow me to explain the protecting of spots: in my example, the two guys I was protecting the spot for were in 2nd and 4th place of a 4 day event. This happened on DAY 3. Other guys on the circuit followed them to their small isolated spot, trying to move in on their bite. I ran them off and cut them off. It was not a case of guys headed to a spot and someone saving the spot for them. There is a big difference between the two. I was proud of what I did for my partners and if I was fishing a tournament and had little going for me while my partners were doing very well I'd do it again......no question." If I roll up on a spot innocently and find you doing that, well, someone is going home with a dented or sunken boat. And it won't be me! :) In a PWT event in the late 90's at Dubuque, I defended a small hump for my team mate on the final day. To a point where two big name anglers did bump into (one of them did several times before giving up) my boat broadside while I kicked the bowmount ahead to block them. The chatter that was included would have been a great show! The PWT regime got big complaints from those guys. BUT! In the end, I was found to be fine and just played the game tough. (I had an attorney in the boat at the time as a co-angler and he attended the meetings with PWT and said "Steve did nothing more than I would do every day in a court room"--end of discussion!.) | ||
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| jerry |
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Member Posts: 2567 Location: Manitowoc, WI | Boat Dents, Dude......you are out of your league when you speak. I am not doing any of this with a chip on my shoulder. You act as though this were the Wild West and the fastest gun was going to win a showdown. It's nothing like that. BTW.....the guys I stopped from moving in on my partners were definitely not wussies. In fact, one was considerably bigger than me. That didn't change a thing. Steve Fellegy.....well done!!! I've read many of the things you've written over the years and enjoyed all of it. Last part: if recreational boaters moved in I would wave to them and tell them to have a nice day. I do not think it's right to tell someone who is not in a tourney that they cannot fish a spot. Have you ever fished the Detroit River during a tourney and a good bite? Trenton Channel is a place where numerous tourneys have been won. It's a community hole and it's open to anyone. A spinner/crawler trolling bite is different, especially in a small spot like in my example, and where NOBODY ELSE WAS FOR PREFISH AND THE TOURNAMENT!!! The bite was focussed in 3-6 FOW in a 100-300 yard stretch. BTW.....if you think I am alone in this, ask Tom Keenan or Dean Arnoldussen if they've ever been apart of something like this. I guarantee they have, because I've discussed it with them, and they agreed completely with my actions. | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Jerry, 2 questions. 1- If I were fishing a rock and there were 2 boats on it on the first day and we finished the day in 8-10th place. Further away from the launch was the leaders rock they were fishing. After 4 hours they did not have a fish so it was time for them to start searching. Low and behold they stumble on Denny on this small small rock that fish will spoke easily off if there is to much pressure and low and behold, they see him net a hogger'. What do you think should be the protocol for this? 2- Why didn't you protect your team mates on the last day of that event? | ||
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| jerry |
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Member Posts: 2567 Location: Manitowoc, WI | 1 - If Denny is smart he will put out a marker so the other guys cannot fish, per FLW rules. 2 - I was there on day 4 also. Other than a few MWS guys prefishing nearby there were no issues. Edited by jerry 8/24/2010 9:34 AM | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | sorry, did not see you there, seen everyone else. why should I have to put a marker bouy out on a trolling pass? It is the same length as the one you were protecting? I guess if your buddies were smart they could just put a marker bouy out as well, then you would not have to protect them. Is that right? You see where this is going. I call foul. As long as its good for you its ok? If a bouy protects you then no one should ever have to whine about it. Back to the question, why should they be able to stop ANYWHERE THERE IS ANOTHER BOAT? | ||
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| jerry |
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Member Posts: 2567 Location: Manitowoc, WI | Denny, As I read your example I assumed you were anchored, parked in a spot, slip bobbering a rock. That is why I answered it the way I did. I'll give you a case in point: 2004 PWT at Bay de Noc. Danny P., Big Dan, Schuette and I are all in the top 10 after the first day. Most everyone knew where we were fishing. A lot is at stake: trip to the Championship, Angler of the Year, etc. Mike Gofron comes to me before the second day and shows me on his GPS where he's thinking about trying. He asks if this is where we are fishing. I tell him yes, because it was the exact spot. He thanks me for being honest with him and lets me know he will not move in on us. I tell him it is a large, long pass and he's welcome to try it if he wants. Not 10 minutes later the late great Gary Gray and I have the same conversation with the same results. That is how it's supposed to work: honor another tournament pros spot. Now, think to what happened to the Posse in 2001 on the Bay.......6 boats on a spot on day one and 50 or more on day two. Is it right? Now.....back to your question. If you have no problem with other guys fishing your spot then it is fine. I think they guys who watched you catch a hog should at least ask you if you mind them pulling a pass or two in this area......just my opinion. | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | OK So, since we have many eyes reading this and protocol could be established right now, what is the answer to this.... ....you come up on me during a trolling pass and holler out to me as you are driving over fish I have yet to get my boards and baits to, to see if you can fish there. NOTE: That move right there would be ballsey enough in its self, BUT>>>>I state no, i do not want you here, and you say....what? YOU then think to yourself, SELF, I was here in practice? I am the leader and the fish these guys are catching are the right ones to win. I am entitled to this spot as much as anyone. As for the green island event, when you offer a totally horrifying amount of cash to guys who did not have to QUALIFY for a championship for 1500 buck entry fee, its a gloves off anything goes event and you know that very well. That is where the change of the face of tourney fishing happened. OH By the way, the guys who watched me pull a hog should not even ask and should not fish. If they are all about not tailpiping then that ends it. Otherwise its tailpiping. many variations to that word. Edited by stacker 8/24/2010 11:28 AM | ||
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| jerry |
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Member Posts: 2567 Location: Manitowoc, WI | Denny, Since you are answering for me and not allowing me a response in the first situation I guess I am out of this. I agree that the guys who happened upon you should not fish. I only offered my answer as a possible solution. Either way works for me. I think I've given enough to this thread. Jerry.....OUT! | ||
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| Johnny V |
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| Tyee, as a matter of fact I was fishing out on Winnie all week, and was even able to prefish with a pro for four days, we went by Riley and a couple other boats (same ones as in the tournament) prefishing and the pro I was fishing with said, what would they be fishing there? He never once mentioned moving over there to check it out. back at the Resort, he had mentioned what we saw, a few other pros said, Riley must be on to something, and left it at that. Its called ethics. Jerry, I do not know you, but I am in total agreement with what you are saying. It comes down to using good judgement on the water. Stacker (I don't know you either) on the other hand, anyone can throw out a bunch of senerios and say "what would you do"? Bottom line is if you think to yourself, I shouldn't be doing this or this could tick the other guy off, you shouldn't be doing it. Maybe I am wrong to think the satisfaction of walleye fishing is to find them and to find out what they are biting on for the day. I love tournament fishing as all you do, and sure it would be nice to cash a few mor checks, but not at the expense of my reputaion as an angler. Not having a clue and moving in on someone elses "spot" just because they are doing well or you witness them catching fish is wrong in anybodies book, and if you do not agree with that, you too are unethical. | |||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | Just jogging my weather-beaten memory.... In the '94 PWT finals , 2 of us were fishing a rock hump and in the top 3 after the first day. Day 2 brought several attempts to fish the spot by others. The 2 of us there were NOT formal team mates but knew each had pre-fished the spot and knew it well. Neither was following each other and we agreed we both had a right to be there on day one. So--all went fine the first day as we rigged within ten yards of each other all day. As a boat would make attempts to move in on us the 2nd day...we backed up our boats (both big tillers were hovering as we rigged) wide open right at the intruders--chasing them off and sending the clear message! Here's the deal. Be it NASCAR, the NFL or a major league pitcher throwing high and inside.....if it's within the rules...you play as tough and as hard as you can to win. Mean,not so nice or whatever...means nothing. It's ALL about winning. If you can handle that or think it should be anything but that...don't play with the big boys. If you knew what goes on in and around the race tracks or on and off the fields---you would agree. It ain't a nice world sometimes. It's business as usual in the real world. Fishing or not!! Look for sympathy in the dictionary, as it's the only place you'll find it from me, if I am competing against you, right between the words sh*t and syphilis. Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/24/2010 1:40 PM | ||
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