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| Message Subject: Merc Nationals and Fish Mortality | |||
Big Sky |
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Member Posts: 31 | Stated point missed, I think, is tournament fishing is for big fish ( = $$) that possibly die upon release while weekend warriors take the smaller fish on an average. Not necessarily a fair comparison from both sides. I read this as many wish the tourney's were run better to save the spawners. Many are jumping on the concerned anglers from the wrong angle. Sure many weekend anglers keep fish. That's not the point. They don't target larger fish that tourney anglers do for obvious reason...money. I would bet that many weekend warriors release the larger fish they are concerned about and thus expressing that point. Don't jump on this as this is just how I read between the lines. I would also bet that those tourney anglers would normally release the larger fish on a normal weekend and not hope they die. Just a fact of tourneys that has argument on both sides. | ||
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| Gander Mt Guide |
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Member Posts: 116 Location: Germantown and Land O Lakes, WI | BINGO. Sworrall help to make this point by stating so emphatically that the tourny minimum size limit is 15", that means that a majority of those 350 fish that died were problally spawners because we all know the big ones need more O2 in the well than the little ones and they're always the ones that go belly up first! All the guys who scream CPR to fish over 20" from here to Walleye Central to Lake-Link to Next Bite and every other walleye board on the web are the same guys who whine about a guy mounting a 25" because it's a breeder are some of the same guys who tournament fish and have no problem with killing a 25" for money....kinda hippocrytical is'nt it?? If a fish dies and goes on a wall it's a shame but if a fish dies and it's for money it's....."Oh Well, it happens". It's my opinion that a 63% survival rate is terrible...NOBODY IS FAULTING THE GUYS WORKING THE TOURNY, Tourny Directors and Anglers are the ones who need to step up to protect these fish. Tourny's are on a different plane than Weekend Warriors..they're under much more scrutiny...when I see that 350 fish go belly up, my first thought was.."Does that happen at every tourny????" More emphasis on sucessful release has to be made by Tourny Directors. When I asked about penalties for dead fish here's what I got from Buckwheat...... ".10 lb Bonus for live fish" That's a far cry from the " Significant dead fish penalty" that Walleye First stated. If these were Musky tournys, and you'd bring in a dead fish, you're done for the day and you'd get a 10" deduction. There's tools like the Survivor that where mentioned, maybe they need to be made a requirement. Edited by Gander Mt Guide 6/17/2004 9:08 AM | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | Gander, You have to FULLY understand what you are fishing for here. Do fish die at tourneys? Is that important to you? Do you think that if fish died in every tourney that would be a bad thing? Should they limit the number of tourneys if fish are going to die? Do tourney anglers put more effort in to keeping fish alive? Do tourney anglers feel bad when their fish die? Are Tournaments good for walleye fishing? Should our DNR regulate Tournament fishing to control the resource better? Do tournamnet directors and participants support this regulation? The answers to these questions for any sportsangler are obviously YES don't you think? Are tourneys about fame and Glory?----NO Should tournament fishermen take the blame because 600 of them killed 300 walleyes?---NO Is that going to hurt this body of water?----NO The harder questions are more like How many fish can be harvested from a particular body of water? What regulations need to be changed to minimize mortality? What is the overall impact to the fishery? What will the long term effect be on a body of water after the tournament? What can be done to improve the image of tournamnets and their anglers? These are the questions you should be fishing for answers on! You planted the seed so you obviously had your own questions and answers. The quality tournaments have much higher success rates than the local bar ones. The bigger fish targeted are not necessarily prime females. This system has an abundance of 20-22" males. And thanks to B.A.S.S, the FLW and a smart responsive DNR, we will have them on board next year policing and setting rules and regs for tournaments where the more difficult questions can be addressed. But REMEMBER before jumping to conclussions be sure of what your asking. In the whole scope of tournaments and walleye fishing in WI. and some fish dying, whats more valuable! Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| Gander Mt Guide |
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Member Posts: 116 Location: Germantown and Land O Lakes, WI | Tyee, what the hell are you talking about? Fishing for what? Some of you tourny guys get pretty defensive awfully quick as soon as anybody has any type of critisism. I'm not asking that tourny's be cancelled or saying that they're good or bad, all I'm asking for is that the spawners are kept alive or that better care be taken if possible. If your defense to spawners dying is saying " Well that's too bad, fish die" or " look what the weekend warriors are doing", then maybe the DNR should become a little harder on walleye tournys. I think the WI DNR has a pretty good clue as to what's happening on Bego without NEEDING tournys to do it. Is there good info to be had, absolutley, but let's not say that walleyes are being sacrificed for the good of the DNR as an excuse for them being belly up. I could care less about the Money, the Fame , the Glory...I care more about the resource. So far from what I've seen from the Merc tourny directors is'nt punitive damages for dead fish, but a reward for bringing them in alive...more like a bounty. Pretty simple stuff actually. | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | John, I couldn't care less if there was a bounty or not, They could have killed everyone as far as I'm concerned, ACTUALLY I would prefer that they do just that when the water gets above 65 degrees as then we know they are going to be consumed rather than possibly die later! Big females or not as long as the "professionals" (not monday morning quarterbacks)determined that it wouldn't hurt the resource! Your not the only one looking out for it, the DNR WILL be getting control over tourneys and the numbers of them allowed and setting regulations etc. Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| Hafe |
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| I'm going to jump on the wagon here, I'm not a tournament fisherman,but I have been guiding for over 10 years on this system.My boat rule with clients is anything over 20 inches goes back if possible,unless they will mount it. So far only 2 people have taken big fish back home,and they were both over 10 lbs. Well past spawning time for them.Do Fish die in tournaments "Yes",but some released fish survive.What should thet do?,keep all the fish caught,and donate them,to needed people?,or try and save what they can? Tournament fisherman are ego motivated to catch big fish,no matter what they tell you.It is a rush to be The Man on stage,and that is human nature.I know of Nobody that wants the system to suffer,especially the tournament guys.This is there hobby,part time job,only income for some,and a passion that runs so deep,they will do what ever asked of them,from the DNR or Tournament Officials,to make it better for all.In my own observations,locals will kill more big fish,for the table,than any tournament fisherman ever will do in his career.A 63% survival rate is by far better than NO fish released to carry on.My hand goes out to all the guys that baby,and pamper the fish at the way-in,they are doing a great job saving what they can,for the future.....hafe | |||
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| Risor39 |
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Member Posts: 377 Location: Neenah Wi | The only thing that concerns all of us is the fish population and can it handle the pressure.The law says you can harvest 5 fish period.I have no problem whatso ever about someone keeping 5 fish if it does not hurt the population be it tournament fisherman or average joe.If we all are so concerned with the tournament fisherman targeting the big fish lets close the river in the spring.Or close the whole system and make it catch and release.Sounds kind of stupid to let a renewable resource go to waste.Why are tournament anglers put into a different category than other anglers?They have to obey the same rules as you and I and then some more rules for the specific tournament they are in too.Tournaments are not going to be the distruction of the fishing on any body of water.Mother nature has more to say about the fishery than anglers do.Mother nature has a way of keeping things in check if we don't screw around with it to much.Yes limits and so forth do make some difference.Look at Escanaba lake in northern Wisc.no size or bag limits and there are still good and bad years of fishing regardless of bag or harvest limits.So that would tell me angler harvest has not desimated the population.Spawning conditions of bait and preditor do.So this discusion of are tournaments good or bad have little to do with the overall health of the system.Keep what you can use put the rest back.Big or small you decide what is right for you. Edited by Risor39 6/17/2004 9:04 PM | ||
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| Buckwheat |
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Member Posts: 132 Location: Southwest shore Bago | As I sit here looking out onto the lake I see 31 boats. I figure I can see 2 miles. Each has 2 or more people on board. That makes a min. of 62 people times 5 "eaters" each. Theres 310 dead fish if I did the math right. I wonder how many more boats are on the other 26 miles of lake. Let's take a deep breathe and chill.............. Keep your hooks sharp! | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | GMG, Listen, you have been here for one thread and have attacked some pretty well established ideals and some pretty well established members with no regard to fact, biologically or logically speaking. If that is your goal, get your backside back to Lake Link where that crap is acceptable. Here it isn't. Period. If you have a positive point to all this, fine.If your true concern is for the resource, I suggest you speak to Kendall, he can enlighten you, I am sure. So far, I read disdain, negative attitude, and pure unadulterated bull in you posts. You obviously have little or no knowledge about the system, the DNR management of same, the tournament permitting process, or for that matter, how this system became such a prolific walleye producer. I didn't see your mug in the crowd as a volunteer working with the DNR to release 63% of the fish caught. I didn't see you filleting the one's donated to the good causes chosen by the Lighthouse Anglers. In fact, it seems the only times I DO see you is on threads like this one. If you don't understand a live fish bonus and try to make that negative then you indicate your total lack of grasp of walleye tournament angling. I am pretty sure you don't follow the LLB coverage we offer here, but if you did you would see the RCL in South Dakota scoring has the top ten as little as 1/10 a pound seperated. If one brings 5 fish to the scale alive, that means FIVE TIMES that amount as a bonus. Enough, some days, to make the difference between 1st and 5th. Incentive, sir, not 'bounty'. The very fabric of WalleyeFIRST is community. Discussions are what we strive for. We will disagree, that is a given. What I am asking you to look to is respect for others opinions, and care not to use language or 'attitude' you did with Tyee. | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | John, Your right! I might have confused you a bit, I assumed the level of conversation on this thread was a bit more mature and educated when you stated your initial post! I assumed that by your handle and the fact that you worded that initial post very well you knew much more than you really do about this topic. As presented it looked to be a thread to create controversy. My apologizies to you for that and I didn't mean to insult your intelligence. The people here know each other very well and welcome opinions from EVERYONE here. Please read more on the topic of sportfishing and tournaments and what is going on as I am sure you will learn a bunch based on your posts so far..... Mr. Worral, thank you kindly but not necessary.....John, You obviously have NOOOOO idea what you said and to who in this last post! Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| Nofish |
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Member Posts: 376 Location: Menominee MI, In Da UP Eh? | My turn! My Turn!!! (with both feet first he jumps in...) All Kidding aside, here we go. GMG, first, you are welcome to post opinions here, and I see your points. Spawners in any system need to be protected, as do any age class of fish. Tournaments need to be run well and most are run far better than most people truly realize. Limits are smaller than state allowed, minimum length is sometimes larger than state allowed etc... I agree 60% (ish) survival rates are not optimum, but they are not bad either. There are still many, many fish, of ANY size that made it back to the lake system. Yes tourney anglers target larger fish, but the majority of these fish in tourneys are not large fish. Many limits of average fish are brought to the scales, and subsiquently released,alive. It used to be the Winnebago tournaments were catch and kill events. That is 100% mortality, and was not very popular. I am not making excuses for tournaments, nor trying to sway anyones opinion. Though you are right there are two sides to the coin, I think the Wi DNR has a pretty fair grasp on the system and knows what it can take. Much is also known about the numbers of fish in the system, and the number of tourneys held there. The WI DNR is doing fine, but anytime they can gain valuable information by piggy backing research onto a tournament, it saves them valuable dollars and man hours and they can generally get MORe done with the time/dollars spent. Again, not making excuses for tourneys, just stating facts as I have seen them and have been told by several states agencies over the past decade or so. Your points elude to the sheer numbers of the system alone not making it able to waste fish, and to an extent you are correct, but given the population numbers of the system (check with the W DNR to read them yourself) one tournament with a 60% Live release rate is not going to hurt the system. I'd be willing to state that all the lost fish in all the major tournaments do not add up to a month of recreational angling losses (either death by mis handling or takin home to eat). Again, not an excuse to wantonly waste fish, but the system is very healthy and there are far more fish there than many anglers can even comprehend. However, you did make a comment about money. You also fish for money but at/on a different level. This statement is one of the triggers that will set everyone off. The fact that tourney anglers compete for money is always injected into a battle to make the anglers seem less than genuine in their care for the system and fish. Tournament anglers hear that alot from the area in question. Money has NO bearing on the health of the system, the fish and the mortality rate. As to not liking someone on the site, that too is your perogative, but has no bearing in a post. The same can be said for how much time anyone "puts in" on the system. That has no relative bearing and adds no real worth to a post on this subject. It actually, in my opinion, detracts from you finer points by treading too close to the "my lake" ideology. As you can see, that tends to polarize a debate and quickly turn into an argument. Tournament anglers do react quickly to criticism as far too often they are verbally assaulted on other sites and are forced to dfend themselves. Speaking myself as a former guide on the system, I applaud your efforts to maintain an otherwise healthy fishery for future generations and I do like the over 20" rules/guideline. We tried to encourage CPR and selective harvest as guides too. It only makes sense. While the mortality rate at the Merc Natl is higher than ANYONE wants to see, I believe everything was done to ensure this release rate and strive for near 100%. | ||
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| walleye express |
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 Member Posts: 2680 Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Ralph. You can't see this....But I'm standing in front of my PC soluting your post. Good stuff...I think somebody got a full 8 hours sleep last night.  | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | GMG, Take it to email if you want to get after me. You know my email address. I don't dislike you, in fact, I don't know you. I DO frequently disagree with you, sometimes with the 'delete' key, sometimes in posts. I was making an observation from my position, which I assure you is to protect this discussion forum from unreasonable or beligerent behavior and commentary. I wasn't just stating my opinion, I was clearly letting you know you stepped over the line of the permissions on WalleyeFIRST. I will make this very strong suggestion. If you indeed do not like me, and insist on posting inflammatory stuff like "Tyee, what the hell are you talking about? Fishing for what? Some of you tourny guys get pretty defensive awfully quick as soon as anybody has any type of critisism." perhaps you should reconsider visiting here. If you wish to be reasonable, then as Ralph said, you are more than welcome to post your feelings. Oh, by the way, I 'log' about 40 hours a year on Winnebago. Ralph, thanks for an excellent perspective. | ||
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| Scrap Iron |
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Member Posts: 106 Location: Chilton, WI | I agree with sworrall, the reason I decided to join this site is because of the respect everybody has for each other here. I was a frequent visitor of lake-link but I got sick of the arguements and whiners on there. Don't take it the wrong way, there are a lot of decent knowledgable people on there but there are also a lot of people that like to run thier mouth in a not so friendly way. That seems to be acceptable behavior on that site. I don't care for it much so I don't visit there anymore. I joined this site because of the friendly atmosphere and all of the knowledge that is shared. You guys run a fine site, this is not the place for arguements like the above. | ||
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